Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to Monument Matters, a podcast produced by the Monument Builders of North America for all things memorialization. Each episode is an extension of our monthly magazine, MB News. Monument Matters invites everyone to listen, share. You'll find all of the episodes on Apple, Spotify and YouTube. I'm your host, Mike Johns, CM, AICA from the Johns Carabelli Company Cimmerano Monuments and Flowers in Cleveland, Ohio. I'm also past president of the Monument Builders of North America. I. Please join me in welcoming today's guests. Ryan Worthington, cm, aica from Worthington Monuments, and William Stalter, the founder of Stalter Legal Services and Pre Need Resource Company.
[00:00:42] Speaker B: Thank you, Mike.
[00:00:42] Speaker C: Hey, Mike.
[00:00:43] Speaker A: Ryan is chair of the MBA Advocacy Council and past president of Monument Builders in North America. And Bill focuses his law practice on pre need and death care compliance. He's been assisting the MBNA Advocacy Council for the past year. So, Ryan, before we get into today's meet, can you give us a little bit of background? How did MBNA and its advocacy program get to where we are today?
[00:01:09] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. So years ago, we had several people that were helping us with the advocacy program. And the program has really evolved into a program where monument builders can reach out to us when they're having issues with cemeteries or funeral homes that they, you know, just need a little bit of extra help. Sometimes it goes as far as Bill stepping in and offering legal advice and even sending letters to the cemetery or funeral home on, on the monument builder's behalf. Other times, monument dealers reach out to us and it's something that we've dealt with before and we're able to kind of guide them, you know, with, with what the best steps would be to handle the issue. So every issue is a little bit different, but we see a lot of cemeteries that aren't allowing someone to sell into the cemetery or install in the cemetery, different things like that. And Bill's been a great help directing people on what to do.
[00:02:05] Speaker A: So what are the main issues being reported today to the MBA Advocacy Council?
[00:02:11] Speaker C: Bill, you want to share what you're seeing most of?
[00:02:14] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, I came into the industry representing the other side, cemeteries and the funeral homes, but kind of gravitated over to more consumer oriented interests. But what, what often what I see is that, you know, we got cemeteries who are probably uninformed, who may think that they're, you know, they're facing cremation issues and they're just trying to pull up barriers, make it, you know, so that they can save some of that business or restrict that business to their own staff. You know, a lot of this kind of shows up in either requiring their staff to be used for the setting of foundations, or requiring inspections for foundations, or just having a kind of exorbitant fee Whenever the family goes outside of the cemetery for their marker.
[00:03:02] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that's a good point, Mike, that he mentioned that not every cemetery that we're having issues with, they're not always doing it on purpose to try and be difficult. Some of them just don't understand what they're doing and that it's not legal or not ethical, whatever it might be. So it's nice to have Bill available.
You know, if I'm dealing with a cemetery that I work with all the time, Instead of me having to go in and be the bad guy, Bill can do it. And it can be a better way to keep a good relationship with that cemetery. Whenever the letter is not coming from me, but coming from Bill. So that's been great for a lot of the monument dealers.
[00:03:39] Speaker A: Sure. How many, how many inquiries do you get of an anonymous nature? Or is everybody forthcoming letting you know who they are and what the situation is? What's that like?
[00:03:48] Speaker C: As far as I know about everything, everyone has been able to let us know.
[00:03:53] Speaker B: I mean, they've been pretty open about disclosing who they are and who they're having a problem with.
And often they're. It's kind of a long running problem or issue with them. So they've just become a little frustrated. So they're. They're ready to put their name out there and say, hey, we, you know, we've got this complaint. What we do ask them to do is to get a copy of the written rules and regulations that the cemetery has. And what we're looking for is kind of a private facial show of restraint or restraint on behalf of the cemetery. When they put her actually in their bylaws or the cemetery's rules, you know, what they will or require to be done by the monument dealer.
[00:04:31] Speaker A: What happens when. Or have you had a situation where a cemetery refuses to provide that information?
[00:04:37] Speaker B: Well, one of the things you might do is kind of like the secret shopper. If, you know, the monument builder can send a family member and they're interested in buying the grave spaces. Ask for the documents and ask for a copy of the cemetery's rules.
[00:04:52] Speaker A: Right. So how many of our members are taking advantage of the program right now, Whether they're in North America or Canada? Are we seeing interest from both sides of that border?
[00:05:04] Speaker C: I want to say that we haven't worked with anyone in Canada that I that I can think of right now. Bill, are you do you think of.
[00:05:10] Speaker B: Anyone not in Canada? Most we're seeing probably, I would say in the mid Midwest, Ohio, Kentucky, so forth.
[00:05:17] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:05:17] Speaker C: Yep. And one thing too, Mike. So whenever somebody does have the need to reach out, everything can be found on the website, on the monument Builders website. There's a form that they can fill out and a list of what all we would like from them, you know, a synopsis of what's going on, any emails or letters that they've already sent, the rules and regulations, all that kind of stuff. So they can do everything online to submit requests for help there.
[00:05:44] Speaker A: So the first step then is to make an official inquiry with this form, is that right?
[00:05:50] Speaker B: Yes, that's correct.
[00:05:51] Speaker A: Got it. So, Rosenberg, Monument Co. Vs. Memorial Park Cemetery association was a landmark case back in what, about 85, 84?
[00:06:01] Speaker B: Yep. Yes.
[00:06:02] Speaker A: And we're still talking about that today. Why is that, Bill?
[00:06:05] Speaker B: Well, you know, in the 1980s and the 90s, the industry pursued the Sherman act antitrust litigation against a number of cemeteries here in the Midwest. We had one here in Kansas City. This was involved though St. Louis Cemeteries who were conspiring through a cemetery trade association to set up rules and really barriers against a monument Roseboro. They're pretty open about it. And the case actually is a little different in that eventually the 8th Circuit set down some very definitive rules, nine rules that cemeteries could or could not do in other antitrust cases. We didn't really kind of see that that, you know, a court be quite that clear. So this is something that's very helpful and in this case kind of evolved from antitrust to restraint of trade. And we find that useful because even though the industry has found it very difficult to bring a Sherman act after about 2000, most states have a restraint of trade statute or you have a consumer protection department.
And so we can give this definitive nine rules out there and show how a cemetery is violating what the 8th Circuit said was either permissible or not permissible.
[00:07:19] Speaker A: One of those nine rules, if I'm not mistaken, is the fact that the cemetery can establish a reasonable fee for staking or inspecting if you're going to go and do your own foundation work, correct?
[00:07:33] Speaker B: That's right. And it just has to be based on actual costs, labor costs.
[00:07:36] Speaker A: And so in your experience, what does that, what does that number look like or how many hours can they justify as being part of that?
[00:07:46] Speaker B: Well, when you think about it, maybe you'd say if it Took them two hours. I mean, I really think some of this work might take an hour. So. But when, you know, when we're seeing even a national company charge $1500 just for an inspection fee, you know, it's not going to be reasonable. It's not based on actual, actual.
[00:08:04] Speaker A: So the, if, if this was the place to start, do you ask the cemetery to justify the hours spent and the cost per hour?
[00:08:14] Speaker B: You get to that point usually what would the first thing do is we have a letter. We prepared that, that the advocacy committee would send to the cemetery. Here's the rules we'd like to discuss. You know, maybe we have a discussion about that. Doesn't look like you're following the Rose bro rules.
[00:08:30] Speaker A: So what do you say to the monument company that's afraid to be the face of this argument with the cemetery?
[00:08:38] Speaker C: It's. We definitely have some companies that don't want to do that. And so, you know, until the monument company is willing to step up and be, you know, behind it, there's not a lot we can do. But, you know, the letter does come from Bill. Bill, I think you. Have you sent an email or a letter with. That doesn't list the name of the monument company? Can't remember.
[00:08:59] Speaker B: I think we've done one. But often what we know that if the cemetery doesn't respond, maybe the next court course of action is to go to the state AG's Office of the Consumer Protection and they will want, they will ask, I mean, who's going to complain? Who's being hurt by this?
[00:09:14] Speaker C: Right. And we really, we have a better leg to stand on if we're able to give a specific name. You know, at least the family that we're dealing with that, you know, feels like they're being taken advantage of. So it's, They're. We're going to go a lot farther if we're able to give an example of exactly which family or, you know, what we're specifically dealing with.
[00:09:35] Speaker A: So I got you. So what, what are the basics? What are the, what are the things that if, if I'm considering coming to the advocacy group for help, what kind of documentation should I be prepared to supply?
[00:09:50] Speaker B: You know, what, what, what we've been seeing is if the cemetery may have like a sales contract or marketing materials that what we're looking for is are they setting out those prohibitions? Are they violating the rules in the sales document, in the marketing material, or in their rules and regulations?
[00:10:07] Speaker C: So we'd also like to see, you know, if they send back a Approval form that has the pricing listed on it. You know, any, anything, any communication that the monument company has had with the cemetery is super helpful to go ahead and include when you submit the request for help.
[00:10:22] Speaker A: So how many, Bill, how long have you been working with the Advis?
I don't know why I have a hard time.
[00:10:29] Speaker B: I think we've been doing this maybe a year and a half or so. Maybe a little longer than that. Maybe two years.
[00:10:33] Speaker A: Okay, and how many cases have you helped?
[00:10:35] Speaker B: Oh my. We've had quite a few. We've got some letters pending and some actions we've taken in certain states. We're building, you know, a action plan for a couple other states. So. But a lot of it kind of depends on getting that. Certain documentation from our members.
[00:10:50] Speaker C: Yeah, we probably get a handful of requests monthly. It'll depend on the time of year, you know, but I would say an average of two or three, maybe a month requesting help.
[00:11:00] Speaker A: And of those, can you comment on your success rate?
[00:11:04] Speaker B: You know, actually we're in that process. We, we've submitted a demand letter to Kentucky attorney general's office. It will take, that will take probably 90 days to run its course before we hear a response. So often, you know, it just, you have to kind of build the case as we go. And you know, we've got a couple other individual cemeteries that, you know, we've sent letters to often thinking that, you know, they move slowly. So we kind of expect that. So we need to get the ball rolling as quickly as we can.
[00:11:33] Speaker A: So this may, the actions may or may not help this particular case, but it will help in the future is the expectation? I guess. So you're talking about action happening in Kentucky, I'm in Ohio. How does that help me?
[00:11:47] Speaker B: I think if we can get some traction with an attorney general's office in one state, another state will listen. So we think we have got a pretty strong case with Kentucky. We're looking at. We've got several complaints received from Ohio members. So that's kind of on the, you know, they're on our periscope.
[00:12:04] Speaker A: Good. You know, we.
I don't know if this is the forum for it or not, but I mean we actually have a not for profit cemetery, Asseson Cemetery, that has a fabricating shop on cemetery property. How does that happen and how does that get allowed?
[00:12:26] Speaker B: It sounds a little questionable. Again, sometimes it depends on who owns actual the cemetery, but again it sounds. It's questionable. Got it.
[00:12:34] Speaker A: All right, well, sounds like we're going to have a follow up conversation. Bill after this is over.
So in general, then, how is the advocacy group supporting MBNA members that aren't having these issues? Why. Why is that important to me as someone that's, you know, live and let live with the cemetery, I'd never had a problem. Why should I care that MBNA has an advocacy program?
[00:12:59] Speaker C: I don't know. I mean, I think that. I think that that would be rare for somebody not to have that. But, you know, I mean, I think that it's important that we're offering something like this. Bill does contribute to NB News. So there's. There's a lot of education out there that even if you're not willing to fight the cemetery right now, he can, you know, the group can give you some ideas on what to look out for. Maybe there. Maybe there are monument builders that don't realize that these families are being taken care or taken advantage of and being overcharged for things. So, you know, maybe there is someone out there that's. That doesn't feel like they're having an issue, but if they really sit down and think, man, there. There are some cemeteries in my area that are taking advantage of these families, and we need to step up and try to get them to do the right thing.
[00:13:44] Speaker B: The other thing, too is, I mean, there. You may not be having a problem with the current manager, but there can always be a change in ownership or a change in management, and all that. That goodwill just has disappeared with a new manager who's going to make it more profitable.
[00:13:57] Speaker A: I think that, you know, in our experience, there are a lot of ways that cemeteries. You know, certainly everyone's looking for margin and everybody's looking to run a successful business, and no one's trying to take that away from anybody. Right. But I think that there are. Are things that cemeteries that can do to change their margins that are not a direct threat to other industries, you know, like our. They could. They could change their opening and closing. They can change all kind of different fees that don't impact the monument dealer and don't ultimately negatively impact their families, because preventing the families from having free choice is never in their best interest. You know, and so I'm not exactly sure how we get them to grasp that concept, but I. It sounds like this is one of the areas that the advocacy program can really get some traction for the.
[00:14:55] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. At the end of the day, the families deserve the right to buy the monument from, you know, wherever they want to, whether that's the cemetery or if they want to come to a monument builder. Then they should have that right and shouldn't be penalized with some crazy installation fee.
[00:15:10] Speaker A: Right. Or other. You know, there's, there's all kind of things that the cemeteries say, you know, the sale of, if you buy from us, that helps maintain the cemetery in perpetuity and so on and so forth. But what they're not telling you is that there are laws that say there's a certain amount of this and that fee that has to be set in perpetual care. So to me, that's really a non answer. Right. It's not the real nuts and bolts of why they're there about it. Right. So what do you see on the horizon where, what's cooking with, with advocacy, let's say, over the next 90, 120 days? What do you, what do you expect to be able to share with group?
[00:15:51] Speaker C: Well, I know Bill mentioned this before, but we really need to get some consumer rights groups involved too, you know, that, that we don't have to go straight to the attorney General for everything. But if, you know, if we can get ahold of someone who's out there, especially with the elderly, you know, that maybe find someone who, who wants to make sure that the elderly aren't being taken advantage of. That would be something that we'd really like to find as a group to help us on that side of things, like just inform these different consumer rights groups that hey, this is happening in many states across the country and people are being taken advantage of. So I think that's something that would be helpful. I know Bill has put together several like form letters, you know, but he then he customizes them to be real specific. So that's nice that we have those. And you know, we're doing all of this at no cost to our members. They're able to reach out to the group and get some help. And then if there is someone that needs more of Bill's time, you know, if he's like, we, I really need to spend several hours on this, then Bill will work with our members at a discounted rate and they can work directly with him.
If what we have prepared for is missing enough, it's nice for our members not have to have to look for someone who deals in this industry. But Bill, Bill's been part of this industry for quite some time. On the legal side.
[00:17:13] Speaker B: Yeah, we do ask the members, I mean, they're a little closer to the ground. You know, look at social media, you know, who else is out there looking out for the benefits of this, of our, you know, consumer group. Older individuals and so forth. But sometimes we. We also will discuss with them ways to kind of counteract what the cemetery is doing without taking legal actions. And it may be like a. A Facebook page or, you know, other types of, you know, just outreach. They're going to be closer to it than we are.
[00:17:41] Speaker A: So I think, you know, as I said earlier, one of the challenges is to get members to be willing to put the target on their back, right? To stand up and say, yeah, I'm, you know, I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore, whatever it is, because if. If you don't speak up, who will? And I think that that's, again, one of the greatest member benefits to being a member of MBNA is you're part of a louder voice, right?
[00:18:10] Speaker C: Yeah. And, you know, Mike, we were talking a little bit about how the monument dealer isn't always wanting to be the guy complaining, right? Because we, at the end of the day, we have to get along with these cemeteries somehow. So if you ever have a family that is an outspoken family and is frustrated with the way they're being treated, we can also utilize them to be more of the complaint, you know, coming from the Smith family, not from Worthington Monuments, who has to deal with the cemetery every day. But we can help guide that family on how they can help, too. And then, you know, it can kind of put us in the. In the back seat instead of the driver's seat, complaining to these cemeteries, that can help, too.
[00:18:51] Speaker A: Are there any. Are there any actions that are being done in that manner right now, or are you dealing strictly with the monument builders right now?
[00:18:59] Speaker C: I think right now we've used the monument builders on everything, but the companies that have come forward are at a point where they're frustrated enough that it's okay for their name to be on there. But it's just a thought that if there's somebody out there that's having an issue but doesn't want to be the one complaining, if we can get the families involved, that's one way around it.
[00:19:18] Speaker A: So, Bill, what are. What are some things again, before.
Maybe I'm not quite ready to call mbna. I'm not quite ready to start the big fight. What are some things that I can do before we get to that point? What are you.
[00:19:33] Speaker B: I think part of it is just if they just share what is causing their concern.
You know, they may think that this is customary way the cemetery is dealing with you, but, you know, they may not be ready to file a complaint. But we can at least kind of educate them about what practices are permissible. You know, there are some things the cemetery can do if it's reasonable, but it is, again, an education. And as far as trying to. For them to understand what is and is not reasonable or permissible.
[00:20:05] Speaker C: And if you file a complaint or if you, you know, take advantage of this advocacy program, Bill's not going to send anything to the cemetery without your approval. So even if you just, you know, write in and say, here's the problem I'm having, can you kind of guide me what the next steps might be? Bill can do that too. You know, he can look at everything and say, yeah, it does seem like, you know, they're not acting properly. Here's what I would recommend you start off by doing. Just because you send in the complaint to us doesn't mean that he's going to go contact them right away. Everything will. Will get approved from the monument company before anything's done.
[00:20:41] Speaker B: And even we, I mean, really recommend that. That, you know, they try to work things out with the cemetery first. And we'll make some recommendations about. Here are the issues. Here's what you should point out to them. And, you know, kind of, you know, empower them to deal with the cemetery on their own terms. But if that doesn't work, then we can elevate it.
[00:20:58] Speaker C: We like to assume that the cemetery doesn't know that they're doing anything wrong first. So that's, that's. That's where Bill seems to start, is educate them as well. And then sometimes, oh, we didn't realize we were doing anything wrong. Well, we can fix that. So that's where we start.
[00:21:13] Speaker A: Is it. How often is it that simple?
[00:21:18] Speaker B: I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you.
[00:21:19] Speaker A: How often is it that simple? Oh, geez, I didn't know. Okay, thank you.
[00:21:23] Speaker B: I mean, it can be that time sometimes. You know, I'll say that, you know, there are different kinds of cemeteries, but the ones that are, say, run by an association. I mean, they're struggling to have board members that will stay on. And typically they are not familiar with cemetery operations or what's permissible or not permissible. So those are the ones. Sometimes we kind of give them a little more latitude and addresses this educational issue.
[00:21:47] Speaker A: So this is obviously a member benefit for folks not only in 50 states, but also Canada as well.
Are there states or areas that you are less able to help or more able to help? How does that shake out?
[00:22:04] Speaker B: Well, you know, I haven't practiced in Canada yet, but I'm always looking for the opportunity or reason to go. I just returned from Canada, so, you know, that would be a learning experience.
I mean, we're most probably capable here in the United States. It's easy assessing their statutes and we kind of have worked on a, you know, with clients or national clients, so that's not really too much of a problem. But we'd like to, I mean, if we can help in Canada, we'd sure like to give it a try.
[00:22:32] Speaker A: So what, what are the top three complaints that you have acted on again?
[00:22:37] Speaker B: You know, that, that flat fee for foundations or inspections that has not based on actual costs, you know, and the other one too will be that when the cemetery insists on you using their people for setting the, the monument or marker. Ryan, can you think of another?
[00:22:52] Speaker C: No. Have we dealt with lately with any cemeteries that just won't even allow outside dealers, though? Can't recall for sure.
[00:23:00] Speaker B: Occasionally we'll see those, you know, often maybe it's a smaller cemetery and so forth, but most are not really, you know, kind of putting, you know, shutting the gate, but they just make it more difficult.
[00:23:10] Speaker C: Yeah. So I would say, you know, outrageous fees and then not allowing installation to be done by the monument.
[00:23:17] Speaker A: So what about. So we talked a little bit about reasonable fees for staking and inspection and that kind of thing. And I understand that that has to be based in some kind of real time reality. What about when cemeteries. I found more and more cemeteries are starting to charge processing fees for your paperwork. So they're in the, they're in the business of selling memorials. So they're selling to families. But if they, if a family buys from you now, they have to pay $25 for the paperwork to be processed or, or something like that. Is that reasonable expectation or is that something that is a gray area? What's, what do you think about something like that?
[00:23:58] Speaker B: I know some of the national companies have been charging administrative fees or other kinds of fees even just on their sales contracts. And actually the number I remember, it's like 250 or $275.
Again, something like that is, I mean, they're trying to defray costs. If they're doing it universally on their contracts as well as, as, as the monument builders, that kind of. Okay, that's maybe equitable. But then you get into that. Are they charging a higher fee for the monument builder versus what, what they're charging for themselves? Those are the kind of things I'd be looking for.
[00:24:30] Speaker A: So if they're, if they're charging me a processing fee, then they should be charging their own families a similar processing fee.
[00:24:39] Speaker B: That's. That's correct.
[00:24:40] Speaker C: For a staking fee or any of those fees, they should be charging it to everybody.
[00:24:45] Speaker A: Okay, very interesting.
So what else would you like to tell the members and non members listening about why you should raise your hand and get involved?
[00:24:58] Speaker C: Well, I mean, if we see something going on, that's not right, that's not fair. You know, it's our job to speak up and protect these families and like you said, in the end, protect the industry. If families can't afford to buy from us because of these outrageous fees that they're getting charged, then they're going to have no choice but to go to the cemetery.
[00:25:16] Speaker B: And so the other thing too is, is unless members speak up, we won't be able to see these trends. I mean, it may, you know, is it happening in all across the country in certain areas, you know, so the more members speak up advices of what's going on out there in the field, it helps inform us as well.
[00:25:35] Speaker A: So it sounds like there's still plenty of bandwidth for the committee and the council to help other members.
So that's reassuring. It sounds like you have had some successes, which is also very reassuring. And it sounds like you're here to stay, at least for the foreseeable future, which is also very reassuring.
[00:25:54] Speaker B: We have plenty of wood to chop.
[00:25:56] Speaker A: I'm glad to hear that. So with that, I'm going to thank Bill and Ryan for joining me. So with that, Ryan and Bill, I'm going to thank you both for joining me and our audience today. The September issue of MB News has an article sharing the research and resources available to members through the MBNA Advocacy Council. I encourage you to read this issue and if you have a topic, another topic you'd like to have covered in a future podcast, please leave a comment. For MB and A, I'm Michael Johns. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen. If you found this information worthwhile, please take a minute and share the link with a friend for comments and feedback. We'd love to hear from you, so please drop a note at info at monumentbuilders. Org. Bill and Ryan, thanks again for joining us. Our studio audience who's out there in the ether.
Thank you for joining us as well. Have a great rest of your day.
