Episode Transcript
[00:00:05] Speaker A: Welcome to Monument Matters, a podcast produced by the Monument Builders of North America for all things memorialization.
Each episode is an extension of our monthly magazine, MB News. Monument Matters invites everyone to listen and share. You'll find all of the episodes on Apple, Spotify and YouTube.
[00:00:25] Speaker B: I'm your host, Mike Johns, CM, AICA from the Johns Garibelli Company Cimorano Monuments and Flowers in Cleveland, Ohio. I'm also a past president of the Monument Builders of North America.
Today I'm speaking with Mark Harrison, MSEd President of Certified Safety Training CST, an organization that partners with MBNA in offering safety programs.
This program is designed to help monument builders protect their employees by identifying safety gaps, avoiding costly fines, and creating a culture where everyone goes home safe every day.
Together we're tackling a topic that affects every shop. Safety and OSHA compliance from silica exposure and heavy lifting hazards, noise exposure and machine safety.
The risks in our industry are real.
So. Good morning Mark. Welcome to the podcast.
[00:01:23] Speaker A: Thanks. Thanks Mike. Thanks for having me.
[00:01:26] Speaker B: Great to see you. Or my notes. Anyway, what are the most common safety hazards monument builders face in their day to day work and why do they so often go overlooked?
[00:01:38] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's, I think everyone that works in the industry knows how hazardous it is, is and can be.
And I, I like to think of workers as experienced and inexperienced and OSHA or any regulatory body we work in, Canada too, which we might get into, doesn't really care about experience, they care about exposure. Right. So what are the people exposed to in the workplace? Silica dust. You already mentioned that. That's a huge one. Right? There's been a lot of activity in California around implementing a regulation or preventing silicosis at work for folks that cut stone that ties into a respirator, respirator protection program, which everybody needs to have in this space. And you know, that's not just having the program, that's actually managing the respirators, making sure people know how to wear them, having fit tests, doing health screenings. There's all kinds of things when you open up that can of worms that happen. Lifting, lifting is a big one. Making sure that you have proper training on equipment that you're inspecting straps, that you have protocols and engineering controls around your facility to make sure that when you're moving stones around people are safe and, and know what to do.
Air quality testing, which also ties into silica and silicosis and making sure people are, are in the right spaces when cutting stone using wet methods.
And then finally the, and this is like the simplest Thing, I think, Mike, you and I were kind of talking offline for a second about you can bring somebody to, to water, but you can't make them drink. You can give them all the tools, but they might not do the thing. The thing is record keeping.
You can't just do it. You got to record it. Right. You got to have some record and proof of training if. Whether it's training somebody at time of initial assignment or annually. Right. That something has taken place to show people how to be safe at work.
[00:03:17] Speaker B: Okay, so what prompted CST to review the safety program it offers to MVA members and to offer it at a discount?
Yay.
[00:03:26] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think we've, we've gotten a lot of really positive feedback from the industry. I think one of the things that we're.
We're doing as a company is.
[00:03:39] Speaker A: Scaling out our services. So we've invested in platforms that allow us to reach different segments of the death care industries at a lower price point for us internally, which means we can match up our pricing with what's more affordable for a retail shop versus.
Right. A production facility.
We also have the ability now to translate everything from English into Spanish and French. I mentioned we're in Canada, so reaching folks in Quebec is important. Obviously reaching Spanish workers across North America is important.
But we, with, through software really, we've been able to scale out our programs so that they're more affordable for folks.
[00:04:14] Speaker B: So is that to say that you have, you have folks in all 50 states to make it more affordable or how does that. Are there on site visits? How does that work?
[00:04:23] Speaker A: Yeah, we operate in all 50 states and Canada.
Uh, we go on site. Typically it's an engagement like this where I might go speak in an event and then we kind of bolt on. You're seeing a few members in that area. I spoke at MB&A in San Diego a couple years back and we had a couple visits there. We also find that a. A virtual audit gets us better information and can do. We can do that at a lower price point for most of the consumers. So providing software and digital tools and then having a conversation like this to go through the details of what we're seeing so that somebody on the ground can actually implement the corrective action in the company is also very beneficial.
[00:05:01] Speaker B: So little off script then. So then a virtual visit, would that include me walking through my shop with a camera and letting you look around or what does that look like?
[00:05:13] Speaker A: Yeah. So in the case of Mike, we obviously don't know each other very well, but we can get to know each other a bit. I would caution that you walking me through FaceTime through your facility and, and me getting nauseous might happen. But what we would ask you to do is take videos.
So in a way we can have a conversation in real time. But the actual tour of the facility would be recorded and then we drill down on specific things that we've seen. And this would be after we put you through about a hundred point checklist online so that we could drill on the very specific things that we want to see videos of.
[00:05:44] Speaker B: Got it. So I know what to be looking at so that you can evaluate the right things. Makes sense.
[00:05:50] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:05:51] Speaker B: Okay, very good.
So how does OSHA compliance go beyond checking boxes and actually help build a stronger, safer company culture?
[00:06:01] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, there's a, there's that famous Peter Drucker line culture eat strategy for breakfast. Right. Remember that one? The. What we hang our hat on is that we can come in there and cross the T's, dot the eyes, show you how to get through a virtual audit or be there in person, give you the online training, give you the tools to run in person meetings.
But ultimately, if you're not empowering your team to star in their role.
Right. If people feel, you know, disempowered at work or belittled in any way, they're not going to look out for one another.
So anybody in any space should understand that they own that space. And anyone who's not normally in it is their responsibility. And part of that is when we go and do in person trainings or even conversations like this, the leadership of the company shows up and says, this is important, this matters. And I appreciate you all being here. I appreciate you taking the time to do this training.
And then from there it's, are you on the shop floor? Are you meeting with customers? Are you doing something else? That's your space. You need to know what the hazards are in that space so that from a cultural standpoint, people are looking out for one another.
[00:07:10] Speaker B: And I think, as you say, cultural space, I think it's important that you let your employees know that finding those pitfalls is important to you. Right. And making those areas safer for your employees is, is critical. I mean, it's not. And nobody really knows them better than the employees that are living with them every day. So creating, letting your employees know that it's a good thing to point these out and not a bad thing is probably one of the bigger parts of the equation. Right?
[00:07:52] Speaker A: That's absolutely it. Yeah. I Have two young kids. I was just talking with Rachel in advance of this, and they're six and four. So transparency, communication, talking about.
[00:08:03] Speaker A: Safety within the home.
It's the same at the workplace. You've got to be on the same page. And people have to feel like. Like they can speak up. Right. If something's not right or up to the standard.
[00:08:16] Speaker B: I think it's, you know, it's probably especially important to the folks that, like me, have been in the industry for a long time to understand that we understand the risks better than we did.
[00:08:34] Speaker B: 50 years ago. Right. Even 50 years ago.
And I point that out because I just. I just found this little.
I'm a Netflix watcher, and I found this series of three shows that Paul Newman did as a young actor.
And the first one, and I want to share this because the first one was brought to you by Kent Cigarettes. Okay. Back in the day when cigarettes were advertised like, you know, everywhere and they, they. How did the micronite filter and how the micronite filter protected the smoker from this and that?
And I'm thinking, what is. What were they thinking? What, What a bunch of crap. Because what ha. What they found was the micronite filter was actually made from asbestos.
[00:09:26] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh.
[00:09:27] Speaker B: Right.
[00:09:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:09:29] Speaker B: And for years, apparently, they knew the dangers of asbestos even while they were using the filter on their cigarettes into the face and just turned a blind eye. And because it was on a cigarette, it made the draw even more difficult than a standard filter. And so smokers were inhaling even harder and ingesting more of the asbestos fibers. It just. It boggles the money.
So, you know, just because it was okay then doesn't make it okay today because we're learning every day, right?
[00:10:05] Speaker A: Yeah, that's absolutely right. I mean, I think what's been happening with silicosis, particularly in California, is a bit of what you're talking about today. We know more about silicosis than we did 20, 30 years ago and what it comes from and how to prevent it. I mean, it is an irreversible disease.
[00:10:23] Speaker B: Right.
[00:10:23] Speaker A: Once you have that, you can't turn it around.
[00:10:26] Speaker B: You know, my. My dad was longtime stone cutter. He died, I think. Complications from copd.
[00:10:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:10:34] Speaker B: Was that from silicosis? Was it from his smoking those can cigarettes? You know, I'm sure it was a combination, but it was all, you know, just part of the deal. You know, guys. Guys were smoking when they were tooling instead of wearing a respirator. That's, you know, it's just ridiculousness.
So I'm glad that we're seeing a change in that kind of philosophy. But it has to start with the employer, and it has to be clear to the employees that we're looking for ways.
Even though, you know, let's face it, sometimes those safety measures take time, take effort, take money.
But we recognize today that those are pennies after dollars. Right. So it's well worth the investment on the short term to protect the folks that are doing this work.
[00:11:31] Speaker A: I think, you know, we often frame these conversations and, okay, what's the government regulation telling me to do? Okay, we can do that. We can figure that out. Government language is complicated. We can put it in, in plain English, so you know what to do.
That's kind of step one, phase one. The next phase is, is asking why are we doing this and what are the other. Other risks that we're abating? Right. If we're able to keep people on the floor working, that's good for business.
Right. If people aren't, aren't getting sick and aren't getting hurt, that's good. And if I always. This might come up in the next conversation or the next question, but I was going to ask, you know, when you travel to different CITIES in the U.S.
what's the first billboard you see anytime you leave an airport?
[00:12:16] Speaker B: That's a trick question.
Welcome to wherever I am.
[00:12:21] Speaker A: Hopefully. Hopefully, that's the first one. And then what's the, what's the second one?
[00:12:25] Speaker B: I don't know. What's the second one?
[00:12:26] Speaker A: Yeah, and maybe I'm, maybe I'm biased in this, but I always, I always see.
Heard it work. Call Morgan and Morgan, you know, like that. It is ingrained, and it's particularly in the US And American culture that if you're not on the same page as your employer, you have a right. Right. There's. There's a lawyer waiting for you. And that's the stuff that you don't have your paperwork.
[00:12:48] Speaker B: Right.
[00:12:49] Speaker A: And you just don't want to be in that situation if you can avoid it.
And that's way past osha.
[00:12:55] Speaker B: Yeah. I think that when, when you pose the question, if you, if you'd characterize it a little bit different, I'd have found where you were going. But you're right.
If you count the number of billboards that you see going up and down the highway, those type of billboards probably outnumber all the others two or three to one, for sure.
[00:13:14] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And I, and again, I should have framed it better. I'm ambia.
Any city I Land in. It's the same thing. It's the same post your eyes or billboard. I see it somewhere every time.
[00:13:26] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
So can you share some examples of types of OSHA violations that monument or stone companies.
[00:13:36] Speaker B: Have been fined for and how costly those fines can be?
[00:13:41] Speaker A: Yeah, so there's three different categories of OSHA fines. There's, there's other than serious, serious and willful or repeated. You know, the, the kind of rule of thumb is that OSHA doesn't really wake up and get out of bed in the morning unless it's a $16,000 fine.
Right. So that's, that's where the kind of the, the football starts on the field. Right. That's the, the 20 yard line, next level. It's like failure to abate. So every day that you don't correct a citation from OSHA, they'll charge you another 16,000. It's actually 16,550.
Right. And these are for things as simple as not having a respiratory protection program, not providing forklift training, not having a hazard communication program and proper labeling on chemicals.
Right. So things that can be done pretty easily if you just spend really an hour or two on this stuff or if you hire a company like ours to kind of get you to that, that watering hole and then all you need to do is actually put the label on the bottle. Right. Where OSHA gets scary is where you have willful and repeated violations. So those can be as much as 165,000 per violation. So any one of those three things that I just mentioned could be up to that, that many. If you're telling OSHA to go pound sand, right. If you're saying, okay, I, I see this citation, I'm just going to let it run, I'm going to let it run up to 165,000. And obviously no one wants to do that.
We've had companies contact us and you know, this is pretty standard government practice they have. They'll get a citation from OSHA. They've got 15 days to respond.
And if you don't respond within those 15 days, then the clock starts ticking on those, those daily violations. Right.
[00:15:26] Speaker A: And then you've got up to six months to hear back from OSHA once you do respond. So even if you respond in five days time, you're sitting on pins and needles waiting for up to six months for them to get back to you. Right. And that's kind of their, and they have all the cards at that point. I will say, sorry for rambling, but I will say that the they don't work on commission. Right. They don't, they don't like just because the fine starts at 16,000. If you're trying to do the right thing, and we do this often with our clients, they'll meet you halfway. And then if you can further say, oh, it was actually, the plan was in a different building. My employees didn't have access to it. We do the training every year. They might even lower the fine below 50% reductions.
So they'll give you three options, but one of them is to contextualize it and to work with them on lowering it. But you've got to be responsive and you got to have your ducks in a row if you're in one of those situations.
[00:16:15] Speaker B: And I will point out that it doesn't really matter the size of your business. Right?
[00:16:24] Speaker A: No, it does not.
[00:16:25] Speaker B: And I, and I say that because, I don't know, it's probably about 25.
It's back in the late 80s.
Yeah. Early 90s. We got a visit. I got a visit when I was doing cemetery lettering. Okay. You think you're outside.
Yes. I was using silica sand at the time. Yes. Of course, I was wearing a respirator and a face shield, gloves. But that was still not enough because of the silica sand itself. Now, remember that granite inherently has silica in it. So as soon as you start sandblasting, doesn't matter what media you're using, you're releasing silica into the air. So when you're doing it with silica sand, it's even worse.
Now, I was the owner's son.
Didn't matter. I was an employee and I was being exposed and that was a problem. So don't think for a minute that if you're a mom and pop shop and it's just you doing the work, exposing, allowing yourself to become exposed is just as bad as allowing an employee to be exposed. Right?
[00:17:39] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:17:40] Speaker B: So don't think that you're, you're safe because of that, for sure.
[00:17:45] Speaker A: And OSHA takes it a step further than that. Anybody that works on your premise.
Right. So anybody. You were an employee. Right. Of a family owned business.
But if you had a contractor that's just there for three or six months or even there for a couple weeks, there's. You still have to protect them. You can't just say, come in here and do this thing and you're gone.
Right.
[00:18:06] Speaker B: Okay, well, that's good to know. You know, that's an area that I never thought of, you know, And I'm sure most folks, even if they are really safety conscious and you're thinking about your employees, I would venture to bet that few of you are thinking about those type of people.
So. Yeah, good point, Mark. Thank you.
[00:18:28] Speaker A: Yeah, we see this a lot with, we work in the funeral home space too, and the trade embalmer. Right. You think, okay, they're just coming in here for contract embalming, but they're still under your roof. They're on your premise, like you. You've got to make sure that they're safe.
[00:18:43] Speaker B: Another good, good piece of advice.
So if, if OSHA has visited your shop and found issues, is it too late to call CSP for help?
[00:18:54] Speaker A: No, it's not too late. We can definitely help them. We've helped them a lot of those situations. I think you don't want to be in that situation. The best. What is the Ben Franklin the best? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, right?
So it doesn't take much. I mean, you talked about pennies on the dollar. I think we're. Our price point now is less than.
It's certainly less than a hundred dollars a month. It might be down to like 50 bucks a month with, depending on the shop you're running. But for that price, to have the peace of mind, knowing that if they come knocking, you're, you're in a good spot is well worth it.
Even if it's just. Even if after six months of waiting and your fines are a couple thousand bucks, it's still worth it. Right. You don't want to have to wait for six months. You'd rather know that you're in compliance.
[00:19:39] Speaker B: So. Okay, so that brings up an interesting.
[00:19:43] Speaker B: Question. This is not a come in, assess and report and go away. This is a, this is an ongoing relationship.
[00:19:53] Speaker A: Absolutely. And that's kind of to bring it up to the beginning of the conversation.
Our platform is a no login. It's basically a learning management compliance system. Right. So you give us your employee roster. They all have a dedicated link that they click on, do their training. It houses all the electronic safety data sheets electronically. There's a series of posters you put around the facility with QR codes that come right back into the system.
And it's there 24 7. And so if you have a contract or you have a new hire, you have access to all this stuff. It's not a, we hung out for a half a day and you never saw us again. In addition to that, to answer your initial question of can, can they call us, we're here With a phone number too. So we can back all that stuff up with, here are your resources and here's how to find it. Oh, you got a letter from osha. We'll write you a response as a client of ours.
So you don't need to lift a finger really in that situation.
[00:20:47] Speaker B: Okay, so then does that mean you would help a client write their hazard communication program or their hearing testing or the HAZMAT information?
[00:21:05] Speaker A: Yeah. So the way, yeah, the way it works for us is the first step with any client is to go through two things. One is a questionnaire so we can customize a 250 page manual for you that's printed and shipped to you. Also provided digitally on this application that I mentioned, our learning management system.
[00:21:22] Speaker A: And then you'll go through a virtual audit. Right. You'll have about 100 questions to fill out around your facility.
Any questions that we have concern about, any red flags that come up, we'll ask you to go take a video or show us a picture of that part of the facility. If we're not there in person, this is how we do it virtually. And then we'll have a conversation with you about what needs to change. There are certain things like air quality testing that you need to actually do yourself or have an industrial hygienist do, or if we're on site, we can do it for you.
But as long as we have the information about your facility, we can get you all those things you need.
You don't have to start from scratch with a written program.
[00:21:59] Speaker B: Okay. Wow.
Amazing.
So it seems to me that at some point in my experience I heard about either the BWC or OSHA offering a type of voluntary program whereby a specialist would come in to a business and offer what I call an off the record evaluation that helped employers understand where their potential risks were and maybe.
[00:22:28] Speaker B: Figure out where they're out of compliance without having to worry about being fined.
Are you aware of any kind of program like that? Is there any information you could share about something like that?
[00:22:39] Speaker A: Yeah, so there are some really good programs. I think Pennsylvania. Mike, you're in Ohio. I think we talked about that. I think those two states offer really good pre OSHA audits and walkthroughs.
[00:22:52] Speaker A: One of the issues is that osha's workforce is never really growing. It's kind of been static for a long time. So they, they might show up, they might do a good job. It might take you six or 12 months to get them in or longer.
[00:23:04] Speaker B: Right.
[00:23:04] Speaker A: Just from a capacity standpoint, they're not going to show up tomorrow. You've got to, got to schedule it out. But yeah, I recommend those programs. Those are the experts. The other thing that I'll mention is that they will tell you what you need to do, but then you still need to do it.
Right. So they might say, oh, you need to have labels on these bottles and then they're kind of aware of that you don't have them. And they would expect you to have that done in the next three to six months.
Right. So just be, be cautious. They're not out for commission. They're not out. It's not a gotcha visit.
But you're, you're in a high hazard industry and you need to actually take action after the fact. Right. Especially if something happens, God forbid.
And you can say, we had this inspection, it was 12 months ago and somebody got hurt at work and we haven't done anything since the inspection that does not look good, but sure would not.
[00:23:50] Speaker B: So what steps should my business take right now to be safe in 20, 26 and beyond?
[00:23:56] Speaker A: Yeah, so I've mentioned this annual audit and the questionnaire. If you sign up with us, we also have a free checklist. I highly recommend taking it. We'll give you a little score to see where you're at on the broader, broader spectrum of things. And if you want to engage with our services, we'll go a little bit deeper and give you what you need in terms of corrective action. Written plans and online training and safety data sheets. But yeah, I would, I would just start with a small checklist. It would take you 20 minutes just to see where your, your biggest risks are and then you can take it from there.
[00:24:25] Speaker B: And you're saying this, this checklist is free to MBNA members?
[00:24:29] Speaker A: Yes, yes, it'll be in the magazine. We have a blog post, I think, shared blog that's going to go out and I think at some point in the magazine there'll be a QR code. You can scan it right to our website. It's just an online form. Again, it won't take you very long and you'll know where you stand.
[00:24:45] Speaker B: Great. That's awesome. Okay.
Another member benefit for being an MB and a member.
Well.
[00:24:54] Speaker B: Mark, it looks like to me we're just about out of time for today, so I want to thank you for being my guest. Well, before I close, is there anything else that you want to share that we may have missed?
[00:25:04] Speaker A: No. Thank you so much for the time, Mike. This was a great conversation. It's good to get to know you.
[00:25:08] Speaker B: I think so too. I mean, it's, it's. Listen, at the end of the day, this is unfortunately.
[00:25:15] Speaker B: Not everybody's top priority, right? We're worrying about getting the people, getting the product out the door for our families and our customers, making sure that the bills are paid, so on and so forth. And sometimes safety gets pushed too far down the list for everybody's good.
So, you know, I encourage everybody to stop living in the past.
Recognize that healthy, safe employees are happy employees, and employers with healthy, happy employees are happy employers.
So if you don't have a professional like Mark and CST in your corner, let's take a look and see how they can help you out.
So again, Mark, thanks for being our guest today. As I said, this topic should be top of mind in any memorial production facility. Thank all of you listeners out there for taking time out of your day to hear what Mark had to say. I hope you found it informative and not just scary.
The December issue of NBA News has an article with that safety checklist and information about the resources available to members at a discount from cst. I encourage you to read this issue, and if you have a topic you'd like to have covered in a future podcast, please leave a comment. Again, thanks for listening to Monument Matters. MBNA invites you to stay connected through Facebook and LinkedIn, or visit www.monimalbuilders.org for upcoming events and webinars, or if you're not a member, to find information on how to join.
So for mbna, I'm Michael Johns. If you found this discussion worthwhile, please take a minute and share the link with a friend for comments and feedback. We'd love to hear from you, so please drop a note to infoonumentbuilders.org so thank you all for spending time with us today. Have a great rest of your day.
