Cremation Trends and Challenges with Industry Experts

WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:11.120 Music. 00:00:12.027 --> 00:00:18.227 Welcome to the second episode of MBNA's Monument Matters, a new podcast produced 00:00:18.227 --> 00:00:22.387 by the Monument Builders of North America for all things memorialization. 00:00:22.627 --> 00:00:29.307 I'm your host, Mike Johns, CMAICA, from the Johns Carabelli Company Cimarano 00:00:29.307 --> 00:00:31.627 Monuments and Flowers in Cleveland, Ohio. 00:00:31.967 --> 00:00:35.727 I'm also a past president of Monument Builders of North America. 00:00:36.687 --> 00:00:43.407 MBNA, for those of you unfamiliar, is a 118-year-old association with the mission 00:00:43.407 --> 00:00:47.287 to define and promote memorialization in a viable, 00:00:47.767 --> 00:00:52.587 innovative, and diversified way for its membership and to enhance awareness 00:00:52.587 --> 00:00:56.967 of memorialization by the general public and remembrance industry. 00:00:57.387 --> 00:01:03.367 In that spirit of promoting memorialization, the MBNA Marketing Committee has 00:01:03.367 --> 00:01:08.807 launched this podcast as an extension of our monthly magazine, MB News. 00:01:09.447 --> 00:01:14.667 Each podcast episode features a discussion related to a magazine theme. 00:01:15.587 --> 00:01:19.347 MindMap Matters podcasts invite everyone to listen and share. 00:01:19.607 --> 00:01:25.127 You'll find all of the episodes of our first season on Apple, Spotify, and YouTube. 00:01:26.001 --> 00:01:30.321 Today, we're talking about cremation trends with Barbara Chemis, 00:01:31.001 --> 00:01:35.321 Executive Director of the Cremation Association of North America, 00:01:35.581 --> 00:01:41.801 and MBNA member Troy the Torch Caldwell, a certified memorialist and fellow 00:01:41.801 --> 00:01:44.281 of the American Institute of Commemorative Art. 00:01:44.721 --> 00:01:46.961 Troy and his brother Tony are 00:01:46.961 --> 00:01:51.601 third-generation owners of Caldwell Monument Company in Kokomo, Indiana. 00:01:52.441 --> 00:01:56.681 Today's podcast I'll call, Don't Get Burned by Cremation. 00:01:57.701 --> 00:02:03.281 So Troy and Barbara, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thanks, Blake. 00:02:04.221 --> 00:02:08.041 Barbara, please tell us, who is Kena? Thanks so much. 00:02:08.121 --> 00:02:12.581 I will say I enjoy a good cremation pun, so I appreciate the title of this podcast. 00:02:12.581 --> 00:02:13.941 So we're off to a good start. 00:02:14.361 --> 00:02:18.241 We are a very young, apparently, trade association. 00:02:18.321 --> 00:02:22.841 We're only 111 years old. So we're younger than us. 00:02:23.061 --> 00:02:28.781 We have 3,700 members that represent funeral homes, cemeteries, 00:02:29.061 --> 00:02:35.781 crematories, supplier members, consultants, students, the common denominator being cremation. 00:02:36.021 --> 00:02:41.541 Anyone who provides cremation, sells cremation, or is interested in it at any 00:02:41.541 --> 00:02:43.621 level is welcome to join Kena. 00:02:44.141 --> 00:02:47.781 We are the Cremation Association of North America. So we have members in Canada, 00:02:48.021 --> 00:02:49.901 the United States, a few in Mexico. 00:02:50.121 --> 00:02:54.481 We're not as well represented there, but cremation rates are rising in Mexico as well. 00:02:54.861 --> 00:02:58.321 And we're really known for two things. We're known for research and statistics, 00:02:58.321 --> 00:03:03.161 and we're well known for crematory operator certification. But we'll skip that topic today. 00:03:03.821 --> 00:03:08.481 Sure. Thanks, Barbara. As you said, Cana has been collecting death and cremation 00:03:08.481 --> 00:03:13.521 data in North America for over 100 years. And that data has been so valuable 00:03:13.521 --> 00:03:15.481 to monument builders like myself. 00:03:15.701 --> 00:03:20.801 Could you please share with us the highlights from your 2024 annual report? 00:03:21.356 --> 00:03:26.756 Absolutely. Yeah. In 2024, we reported on 2023 data. 00:03:27.076 --> 00:03:31.996 So here we are recording in December of 2024, and the year is wrapping up, 00:03:32.156 --> 00:03:36.476 but we'll be publishing 2024 statistics in May of 2025. 00:03:36.476 --> 00:03:41.456 Just in case your listeners find this podcast at various times, 00:03:41.716 --> 00:03:50.456 just to set where we are. In 2023, the national cremation rate was 60.6%. So we exceeded 60%. 00:03:51.596 --> 00:03:57.596 Cana gathers data initially from our members way back when, over 100 years ago, 00:03:57.796 --> 00:04:02.236 but since the late 90s has gathered that data from death certificates. 00:04:02.496 --> 00:04:07.536 So we actually go to every state and province and ask for the vital statistics, 00:04:07.536 --> 00:04:13.596 what form of disposition was listed on the death certificate. it and report that. 00:04:14.176 --> 00:04:18.636 And primarily, we've reported cremation data over this time period. 00:04:18.756 --> 00:04:20.716 We haven't talked about other forms of disposition. 00:04:21.296 --> 00:04:24.856 What we've noticed by gathering this data at the state level, 00:04:24.976 --> 00:04:31.756 sometimes even at the county level, is a very predictable, very reliable trend of growth. 00:04:31.856 --> 00:04:35.236 And it's a little tough talking about numbers on a podcast, so I'm going to 00:04:35.236 --> 00:04:37.276 try to describe a picture if that helps. 00:04:37.436 --> 00:04:41.576 You can imagine an S-curve. Think back to any statistics classes you might have taken. 00:04:41.876 --> 00:04:45.476 An S-curve isn't super loopy, but it's more like a very long tail. 00:04:45.976 --> 00:04:50.196 So from the first cremation that took place in 1876, that was number one, 00:04:50.396 --> 00:04:59.316 to 1977, so 100 years of a long tail, the cremation rate in 1977 became 5% in the U.S. 00:04:59.416 --> 00:05:04.756 So that's a long time where cremation was practiced by cemeterians almost exclusively 00:05:04.756 --> 00:05:10.396 until about the 1950s and then started capturing the interest of consumers. 00:05:11.076 --> 00:05:21.596 And from the early 70s to 2016, the national cremation rate grew from 5% to exceeding 50%. 00:05:21.596 --> 00:05:27.616 And then over the past eight years, it's increased another 10%. 00:05:27.616 --> 00:05:32.596 So if you imagine this kind of long tail and then a steep growth, 00:05:32.796 --> 00:05:34.896 and then now it's starting to slow. 00:05:35.096 --> 00:05:37.696 Growth is starting to slow. It will not reverse. 00:05:37.936 --> 00:05:40.196 Let me just say, it will not reverse. 00:05:40.456 --> 00:05:46.216 There's no mathematical model that shows cremation rate reversing to actually 00:05:46.216 --> 00:05:51.776 go down percentage-wise, but it does vary state by state, this growth rate. 00:05:51.936 --> 00:05:55.196 So there's a big S curve for the nation, and then state by state, 00:05:55.316 --> 00:05:56.156 they're a little bit different. 00:05:56.556 --> 00:06:03.276 So in other words, 5%, steep growth to 50%, slower growth to 60%, 00:06:03.276 --> 00:06:07.696 and now we're starting to see a leveling off to an eventual plateau, 00:06:07.936 --> 00:06:10.056 which we predict will be somewhere around 80%. 00:06:11.166 --> 00:06:15.146 So, are the trends in Canada following the same path? 00:06:15.746 --> 00:06:19.726 Canada's leading the way, let me say. For those of you listening who have colleagues 00:06:19.726 --> 00:06:24.766 in Canada, definitely connect with them about how they're handling cremation 00:06:24.766 --> 00:06:30.186 because there are a good 10 to 15 years ahead of us as far as cremation rate growth. 00:06:30.406 --> 00:06:37.986 The cremation rate in 2023 nationally in Canada was 75.3%, I believe it was, but 75 for sure. 00:06:38.486 --> 00:06:43.986 So, we think United States will hit 75% in 10-ish years. 00:06:44.766 --> 00:06:47.846 So Canada is actually ahead of us in that sense. 00:06:48.566 --> 00:06:52.526 Canada has roughly 10% of the population of the United States, 00:06:52.826 --> 00:06:55.546 more land, of course, but 10% of the population. 00:06:55.806 --> 00:07:00.646 And we're culturally very similar, not the same, but culturally very similar 00:07:00.646 --> 00:07:04.506 with urban and rural communities and trends that kind of track. 00:07:04.746 --> 00:07:08.786 So it's well worth looking at Canadian trends to see where the U.S. may go. 00:07:09.266 --> 00:07:16.006 So how does geography play into the mix? East coast, west coast, urban, rural? 00:07:16.706 --> 00:07:21.406 Let's talk about that for a minute. It's almost, it's very similar to the United States. 00:07:21.566 --> 00:07:26.046 For example, and I'll stay with you U.S. statistics statewide. 00:07:26.886 --> 00:07:29.966 So here's a little quiz, Mike. Pop quiz. 00:07:30.246 --> 00:07:35.106 There's no wrong answer, really. I'll supply the answer. This isn't about a gotcha thing. 00:07:35.546 --> 00:07:39.446 But what do you think the state is in the United States with the lowest cremation 00:07:39.446 --> 00:07:41.786 rate? Troy, you can join in here too. What's your guess? 00:07:42.548 --> 00:07:47.108 Which state has the lowest state? I would think it would be maybe in the New England area. 00:07:47.368 --> 00:07:51.328 I wouldn't say a specific state, but that general part of the country, 00:07:51.328 --> 00:07:53.068 I would think it would be lower than most. 00:07:53.348 --> 00:07:57.068 But I'm not sure. Well, you're not wrong. There are a couple of states in New 00:07:57.068 --> 00:08:00.768 England that are below the national average, but it's Mississippi. 00:08:01.108 --> 00:08:06.288 Mississippi is still below 40 percent cremation, which is significantly lower 00:08:06.288 --> 00:08:12.508 than the national rate. While we have four states now that are above 80% cremation. 00:08:12.808 --> 00:08:18.508 So Washington, Oregon, Nevada, and Maine are consistently above 80% cremation 00:08:18.508 --> 00:08:24.648 rate, right around 80%. And what's interesting to me about Maine is it's way 00:08:24.648 --> 00:08:26.368 far north. It's basically Canada, right? 00:08:26.608 --> 00:08:30.008 Geographically, if you just drew a straight line. Now, it's not. 00:08:30.208 --> 00:08:33.268 No offense to listeners from Maine here, of course. 00:08:34.048 --> 00:08:38.228 But Maine has a super high rate of cremation memorialization. 00:08:38.568 --> 00:08:41.648 I'm sure there's scattering that happens there too, and there are cremated remains 00:08:41.648 --> 00:08:44.468 that go home. But cemeteries are very active in Maine. 00:08:44.668 --> 00:08:50.668 And it's very much like Canada in that way because Canada reports higher cremation memorialization. 00:08:51.068 --> 00:08:56.368 There's still scattering, of course, but higher rates, lower rates of cremated 00:08:56.368 --> 00:08:58.268 remains at home, for example. 00:08:58.648 --> 00:09:01.628 Now, the other states I mentioned are all on the West Coast, 00:09:01.788 --> 00:09:03.148 right? Washington, Oregon, Nevada. 00:09:04.028 --> 00:09:07.268 And sure enough, that's a trend that flows in Canada as well. 00:09:07.388 --> 00:09:11.548 British Columbia is over 90% cremation as a province. 00:09:12.068 --> 00:09:15.468 And that's a big population center as well. 00:09:15.688 --> 00:09:20.308 So as far as urban versus rural, also much like the United States, 00:09:20.488 --> 00:09:26.268 the populations tend to be on the coasts and more rural area and farmland and 00:09:26.268 --> 00:09:28.708 manufacturing and stuff in the middle of the country. 00:09:28.948 --> 00:09:34.448 And so that tends to be less diversity in the sense of religious, 00:09:34.928 --> 00:09:39.728 ethnic, racial diversity, not just more homogenous communities, 00:09:39.728 --> 00:09:43.968 more ties to the community and therefore the cemetery. 00:09:44.328 --> 00:09:49.988 And so even when, say, snowbirds move to warmer states or provinces for warmer 00:09:49.988 --> 00:09:54.868 weather or better weather, they still may go back to those home provinces to 00:09:54.868 --> 00:09:57.768 be buried or and earned in that case. 00:09:57.968 --> 00:10:01.148 So those trends are similar for the U.S. and Canada. 00:10:01.957 --> 00:10:05.557 Troy, any surprises there for you? No, just observations. 00:10:05.897 --> 00:10:10.677 I think part of the reason that Canada probably leads that trend is because 00:10:10.677 --> 00:10:15.577 the inconvenience of their winters was preventing them from doing traditional 00:10:15.577 --> 00:10:18.937 burials over numerous months during the winter. 00:10:19.297 --> 00:10:24.177 And so they got a head start on doing more cremations early, 00:10:24.177 --> 00:10:26.457 and then that momentum just carried them forward. 00:10:26.557 --> 00:10:30.117 And I think that's probably the case for Maine as well. the west 00:10:30.117 --> 00:10:34.017 coast I think it's more of a trend setting thing because 00:10:34.017 --> 00:10:36.957 obviously the winter isn't the object that they're 00:10:36.957 --> 00:10:40.037 that made it more practical for cremation I 00:10:40.037 --> 00:10:44.937 guess is the reason and I think I think that's part of it I think it weighs 00:10:44.937 --> 00:10:50.977 into practicality and convenience so sometimes it's a choice not in your studies 00:10:50.977 --> 00:10:58.317 Barbara and all the studies I've read are not pointing towards it's just a financial thing. It is not. 00:10:58.557 --> 00:11:04.197 It's a convenience and practical thing. And so we can't discount that at all for sure. 00:11:04.417 --> 00:11:10.277 No, that's right. I'm surprised though that California, Bobby, 00:11:10.797 --> 00:11:13.057 wasn't mentioned in your top. 00:11:13.877 --> 00:11:21.157 Yeah. We find that the higher population states and higher, are more diverse, 00:11:21.497 --> 00:11:23.617 are more, yeah, more diverse. 00:11:23.777 --> 00:11:27.817 California is 25% of the U.S. population. 00:11:28.217 --> 00:11:34.077 So it stands to reason that it's in the high 60s, which is a little bit above the national average. 00:11:34.077 --> 00:11:39.197 But there's the, I think it's the second largest Jewish population, for example, 00:11:39.477 --> 00:11:45.417 tend not to cremate a big Muslim population, a lot of immigrants and first-generation 00:11:45.417 --> 00:11:50.677 immigrants, If assuming they're coming from a place where cremation isn't the norm, 00:11:51.317 --> 00:11:54.537 may choose to bury or ship their body back to their home country, right? 00:11:54.857 --> 00:11:58.517 There's also a big Asian population where cremation is the norm. 00:11:59.317 --> 00:12:05.557 The more diverse in that sense then tends to be a lower cremation rate because 00:12:05.557 --> 00:12:12.477 one of the driving forces we see with cremation growth is we're influenced by 00:12:12.477 --> 00:12:15.297 what the people around us do in the community. 00:12:15.297 --> 00:12:19.477 And if it's not cremation, if very few people cremate, then the growth rate 00:12:19.477 --> 00:12:22.777 is slower. It's going to grow for all the reasons people choose cremation, 00:12:22.937 --> 00:12:28.017 but a little bit slower because not everybody are early adopters and trendsetters. 00:12:28.357 --> 00:12:32.837 Whereas I've been talking to funeral directors in my travels on behalf of Kena, 00:12:33.417 --> 00:12:36.777 actually a cemeterian most recently, a funeral director turned cemeterian. 00:12:37.444 --> 00:12:42.584 Who just turned 40, and his entire career has been in 80% or higher cremation 00:12:42.584 --> 00:12:46.904 rate areas because he was in Hawaii, Washington, and now Maine. 00:12:47.704 --> 00:12:51.584 Goodness. And so his entire career has been in that. 00:12:51.644 --> 00:12:57.604 That's all he knows is cremation memorialization in three very different states. So it's fascinating. 00:12:57.904 --> 00:13:03.364 It really is. The annual report not only looks at what has happened, 00:13:03.604 --> 00:13:07.804 your data model also looks into the future. So what are your projections? 00:13:08.524 --> 00:13:12.744 We can project continued growth, although slower growth. 00:13:13.304 --> 00:13:19.464 One to 2% is a pretty big window for growth rate, right? And that's what we've consistently said. 00:13:20.124 --> 00:13:25.784 States currently with lower cremation rates will experience more toward the 2% growth rate. 00:13:26.084 --> 00:13:31.944 And states with 80% cremation rate are even below 1% growth rate in some cases. 00:13:32.304 --> 00:13:36.104 So it's still going to fall within that range or close to that range. 00:13:36.264 --> 00:13:41.404 But the national average is likely to be closer to 1% growth rate over the next 10 years. 00:13:41.964 --> 00:13:47.824 So I know I keep hammering this in, but we are a profession often of wishful thinking. 00:13:48.364 --> 00:13:53.884 And when I say slower growth or we show images of cremation growth or these 00:13:53.884 --> 00:13:57.644 new forms of disposition that are coming out, certainly they're going to impact this. 00:13:57.764 --> 00:14:01.084 No, they're not in the next 10 years or so. Cremation rate will continue to grow. 00:14:01.264 --> 00:14:04.284 So we need to accept that as a fact and plan for that. 00:14:04.504 --> 00:14:07.684 Now, it varies, as we talked about rural versus urban. 00:14:07.924 --> 00:14:13.344 So within a state, within counties, within businesses, cremation rates will change. 00:14:13.744 --> 00:14:19.544 But the key benchmark takeaway is cremation rates will continue to grow steadily. 00:14:19.904 --> 00:14:23.324 So how can you work within that environment 00:14:23.324 --> 00:14:26.624 and continue to work within an environment of growing cremation? 00:14:28.208 --> 00:14:33.288 So cremation is here. It's here to stay. There's no question about that. 00:14:33.548 --> 00:14:41.768 But the real question, I think, for 10 B&A members isn't so much about cremation 00:14:41.768 --> 00:14:48.408 itself, but about disposition and memorialization as it relates to cremation. 00:14:48.648 --> 00:14:54.128 Troy, to you first, what do you see in your business in that regard? 00:14:54.648 --> 00:14:59.328 To quantify this a little bit, I'm in a rural part of Indiana, 00:14:59.968 --> 00:15:05.868 and Indiana in general has stayed very close to the national averages in the cremation rate. 00:15:06.088 --> 00:15:10.408 I would say we were at national average even when the rate was low. 00:15:10.608 --> 00:15:13.668 So all along that path, I think we were pretty average. 00:15:13.948 --> 00:15:18.128 I don't like being average, but that's where we're at. I think the biggest thing 00:15:18.128 --> 00:15:22.348 that I'm seeing is as it got past the 50 percent mark, 00:15:22.788 --> 00:15:29.968 people were not being informed as well as they should have been as they were 00:15:29.968 --> 00:15:31.768 at 30 and 40 percent rate. 00:15:31.968 --> 00:15:38.428 And so when they got to 50 and 60 percent, I think it became this new challenge 00:15:38.428 --> 00:15:43.088 for everyone in the funeral and cemetery industry to start addressing it and 00:15:43.088 --> 00:15:44.888 educating people on their options. 00:15:44.888 --> 00:15:48.208 And then that transfers over to us. 00:15:49.028 --> 00:15:55.108 I know that from my conversations with local funeral homes, there's a level 00:15:55.108 --> 00:16:00.128 of frustration in the amount of unclaimed cremations. 00:16:00.448 --> 00:16:04.528 That's a pretty large thing that industry, the funeral industry, 00:16:04.768 --> 00:16:09.648 is having to address because they can't force people to come in and pick them 00:16:09.648 --> 00:16:15.608 up and they're trying to come up with the appropriate ways to handle that. or the monument dealer. 00:16:15.828 --> 00:16:19.488 I guess I can speak to that because I'm 40 plus years into this. 00:16:19.848 --> 00:16:26.968 It has increased the challenges for us to create creative memorials that accommodate 00:16:26.968 --> 00:16:32.468 both the cremation in the memorial and accommodate if they choose to bury the 00:16:32.468 --> 00:16:33.688 cremation in the ground. 00:16:34.948 --> 00:16:40.028 Probably the biggest thing that we've struggled with is being the memorialist 00:16:40.028 --> 00:16:43.108 for the cremation that stays at our residence. 00:16:43.948 --> 00:16:49.608 And Barbara and her group and the new study that they did recently showing that 00:16:49.608 --> 00:16:52.588 a lot of these cremations have ended up in the residence. 00:16:53.208 --> 00:16:57.828 That speaks to the fact that probably we've done a poor job of memorializing 00:16:57.828 --> 00:17:01.748 or giving memorialization options for those people. 00:17:01.928 --> 00:17:06.508 So I think the challenge is pretty steep for us as memorialists, 00:17:06.688 --> 00:17:10.988 but we're learning us on the fly and we're adapting as we go. 00:17:10.988 --> 00:17:15.548 And that's the way we've been all through my career anyway, is just adapting 00:17:15.548 --> 00:17:19.148 as clients come in and we give them creative ideas and they run with them. 00:17:19.328 --> 00:17:20.168 Barbara, your thoughts? 00:17:20.980 --> 00:17:26.080 Ditto, Troy, you encapsulated the challenges extremely well. 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:31.240 I'll just use some different words to emphasize your points and maybe be a little more direct. 00:17:31.520 --> 00:17:34.680 Cremation profitability is a problem the profession made. 00:17:34.800 --> 00:17:39.100 And I'm just going to say that for more for funeral directors, 00:17:39.320 --> 00:17:40.460 I think, than cemeteries. 00:17:40.620 --> 00:17:44.120 Cemeteries got, one of my past presidents, who's a cemeterian, 00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:48.460 described cremation was an apocalypse for cemeteries. 00:17:48.600 --> 00:17:50.480 It's just a challenge for funeral homes. 00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:56.480 And I think the core of that is that, and this is changing slightly, 00:17:56.520 --> 00:18:00.380 so I'm not going to end on a dismal note, but most consumers, 00:18:00.380 --> 00:18:05.480 when they talk about cremation, the conversation ends with just cremate me, with disposition. 00:18:06.180 --> 00:18:12.560 Too many funeral directors, cremation providers, stop the conversation there 00:18:12.560 --> 00:18:17.440 too and do not have a referral to that family, do not even introduce the concept 00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:20.860 of permanent placement, memorialization, et cetera. 00:18:21.100 --> 00:18:23.920 If the family says, oh, we're just going to scatter or something sometime in 00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:27.920 the future, they accept that. Because honestly, what else are they supposed to do? 00:18:28.080 --> 00:18:32.880 You can't really press a grieving family to make decisions beyond what really 00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:34.080 need to be made in the moment. 00:18:34.260 --> 00:18:38.900 But that ultimately delays the decision for the family. 00:18:39.580 --> 00:18:44.420 And so often, I'll say this a different way, so often families report, 00:18:44.420 --> 00:18:46.560 We know this from our consumer research. 00:18:46.760 --> 00:18:49.800 They like cremation because it's simple. There's fewer decisions. 00:18:50.360 --> 00:18:55.760 It's private, not public, all of these things. Simple is a word that I despise 00:18:55.760 --> 00:18:57.980 because they're really just delaying decisions. 00:18:58.825 --> 00:19:03.505 Skipping the cemetery, okay, that simplifies matters if you only have to go 00:19:03.505 --> 00:19:07.885 to a funeral home and not a cemetery, but ultimately somebody else in their 00:19:07.885 --> 00:19:12.085 family or in their circle is going to inherit that decision, 00:19:12.265 --> 00:19:13.205 those ashes, literally, 00:19:13.545 --> 00:19:15.925 and then the decisions about what to do with them. 00:19:16.385 --> 00:19:19.085 We find ourselves, as a profession, we find ourselves in a place, 00:19:19.145 --> 00:19:20.405 can cremation be profitable? 00:19:20.865 --> 00:19:25.705 And the answer is yes, but it's not easy. It's changing the business model significantly 00:19:25.705 --> 00:19:29.045 of, say, a funeral home or cremation provider, 00:19:29.305 --> 00:19:34.105 it's either providing just the disposition and being fine with that and leaving 00:19:34.105 --> 00:19:39.805 the family to plan their own celebrations or services and ultimate permanent placement, 00:19:39.805 --> 00:19:46.665 or providing a lot of consumer education and options and value around what cremation can be. 00:19:46.845 --> 00:19:49.985 And I think that's exactly where we are. And that's the challenge we need to 00:19:49.985 --> 00:19:53.485 embrace because not to call out any one generation, 00:19:53.745 --> 00:19:59.285 but those older generations embracing cremation And driving this, 00:19:59.465 --> 00:20:03.565 and we have to realize, consumers have driven this love of cremation, 00:20:03.705 --> 00:20:08.625 this embracing of cremation, this growth over the last 50 years or so to 60%. 00:20:09.405 --> 00:20:13.105 Those early generations that drove that were the ones that said, 00:20:13.205 --> 00:20:15.865 just cremate me and refused to talk about anything else. 00:20:16.185 --> 00:20:20.665 They made the decision themselves, often not in collaboration with their family members. 00:20:21.745 --> 00:20:25.605 We all have stories in our family about being surprised when so-and-so said 00:20:25.605 --> 00:20:26.805 they wanted to be cremated, right? 00:20:26.885 --> 00:20:30.125 We hear that all the time. And now that's shifting. 00:20:30.265 --> 00:20:34.785 Younger generations, younger baby boomers, Gen X, millennials are more involved 00:20:34.785 --> 00:20:36.145 in the decision to cremate. 00:20:36.485 --> 00:20:40.845 And I think there's more of an opportunity to have a discussion about beyond 00:20:40.845 --> 00:20:43.405 just cremating in that case. 00:20:43.605 --> 00:20:47.545 There's an opportunity, but it's a huge challenge as well because pop culture 00:20:47.545 --> 00:20:50.525 isn't helping us, right? Pop culture shows us scattering. 00:20:51.045 --> 00:20:54.245 But yeah, we'll get to that in a minute. I know in our conversation, 00:20:54.245 --> 00:20:57.025 we know that not everybody is scattering who said that they will. 00:20:57.025 --> 00:21:05.205 We also know that a lot of these people that have the cremation at home end 00:21:05.205 --> 00:21:08.025 up 15, 20 years later saying, now what? 00:21:08.885 --> 00:21:14.845 It has sat on the shelf and I'm moving or I'm doing whatever and who do I hand it off to? 00:21:15.085 --> 00:21:19.325 And the hot potato concept can't be the way we handle these things. Exactly. 00:21:20.605 --> 00:21:25.085 I think the challenge remains. I think in our business, 00:21:25.605 --> 00:21:31.945 we have always found that the families that come in that are either pre-planning 00:21:31.945 --> 00:21:40.045 or they are delaying the choice, as you have said, Barbara, end up making decisions. 00:21:40.632 --> 00:21:46.872 What I would call better or more informed decisions about memorialization. 00:21:47.132 --> 00:21:51.412 Their memorialization isn't as grief driven. 00:21:51.912 --> 00:21:58.992 So they have a much greater opportunity to think through the process and to 00:21:58.992 --> 00:22:03.892 understand the benefits of the memorialization, 00:22:03.892 --> 00:22:08.452 not just in the service, but in a tangible place, 00:22:08.712 --> 00:22:10.772 a monument, a headstone, 00:22:11.292 --> 00:22:13.812 whatever you want to, however you want to categorize it. 00:22:14.432 --> 00:22:20.792 Some connecting point that they can go to to reflect upon that person, 00:22:20.972 --> 00:22:25.272 the life they led, their memories of that person, and so on. 00:22:25.692 --> 00:22:30.892 Those choices, those decisions always, almost 00:22:30.892 --> 00:22:39.272 a hundred percent end up with something far more meaningful to the family in 00:22:39.272 --> 00:22:48.392 terms of a monument or memorial than one that's made 45 minutes after the interment in the cemetery. 00:22:48.872 --> 00:22:55.452 So to see that the delay of decision is not necessarily a bad thing, 00:22:55.452 --> 00:23:00.852 I think that plays well to what we are trying to do as memorialists. 00:23:01.552 --> 00:23:05.192 Thank you for sharing that with me in that way, because I was going to share 00:23:05.192 --> 00:23:07.852 a story that I think proves your point. 00:23:08.192 --> 00:23:14.292 I have two friends who are turning 70 next year, and so they feel like now is 00:23:14.292 --> 00:23:16.592 the time to get their affairs in order. 00:23:16.772 --> 00:23:20.192 And so we were talking about what that means. They both want to be cremated. 00:23:20.632 --> 00:23:24.712 What does that mean? Of course, I encourage them to use a kingdom member to 00:23:24.712 --> 00:23:26.112 prearrange and preplan. 00:23:26.652 --> 00:23:30.812 But as we were talking about that, I said, but don't just stop with cremation or burial. 00:23:31.112 --> 00:23:34.852 Where will your cremated remains go? To your daughter? Or do you want to be scattered? 00:23:35.132 --> 00:23:38.752 What do you want to do? And I knew for certain that they had thought about this 00:23:38.752 --> 00:23:39.672 because that's who they are. 00:23:40.352 --> 00:23:43.672 But they shocked me. And I live on the north side of Chicago, 00:23:43.832 --> 00:23:47.812 so do they. In between where we live is a beautiful historic cemetery. 00:23:48.952 --> 00:23:53.572 And it turns out that they have eight rave spaces in that cemetery, 00:23:54.152 --> 00:23:56.772 four of which are filled, four are not. 00:23:58.532 --> 00:24:01.872 Maybe all four of those were supposed to be their parents level, 00:24:02.072 --> 00:24:03.952 but all were cremated in their home. 00:24:04.052 --> 00:24:08.612 They have seven sets of cremated remains at home and probably more if they put 00:24:08.612 --> 00:24:10.712 a call out to cousins and family members. 00:24:11.483 --> 00:24:16.183 And so when they went to ask about what their options were with those four graves, 00:24:16.543 --> 00:24:21.483 they learned to their delight that, of course, they could bury cremated remains. 00:24:21.743 --> 00:24:26.063 There are stones at four of the graves, but not the others. 00:24:26.223 --> 00:24:32.603 And so they are actively designing right now a bench that will go span two of 00:24:32.603 --> 00:24:36.703 the graves and have the family name and have spaces for urns. 00:24:36.883 --> 00:24:41.403 And I don't know which monument builder they're working, but I pray they're an MBNA member. 00:24:41.483 --> 00:24:45.023 Let's just assume, because it's so creative and awesome and meeting their needs. 00:24:45.403 --> 00:24:49.823 And they had no idea that this was possible. And they were so excited about 00:24:49.823 --> 00:24:54.383 talking about this and how it's, to them, it's similar to their art collection, 00:24:54.603 --> 00:24:56.823 right? This is going to reflect their taste. 00:24:57.223 --> 00:25:00.443 They're working with an artist is how they discussed it. 00:25:00.883 --> 00:25:02.803 They're so excited with this process. 00:25:03.323 --> 00:25:06.103 And then they turned to me and they're like, why are you interested in that? 00:25:06.183 --> 00:25:09.403 That's the cemetery side of things. I'm like, oh my gosh, this is a continuum. 00:25:09.403 --> 00:25:11.103 Of course, I want to hear about this. 00:25:11.623 --> 00:25:15.543 But there's this disconnect, right? We need to bridge that disconnect. 00:25:15.543 --> 00:25:17.843 And we're doing so with conversations like this. 00:25:18.263 --> 00:25:25.203 But yeah, I think they are absolutely benefiting from waiting two generations to plan this. 00:25:25.303 --> 00:25:30.083 And it's going to be something that really reflects what they love and value and the family. 00:25:30.283 --> 00:25:32.643 There's images, oh, it's just going to be cool. Yeah. 00:25:33.903 --> 00:25:40.443 So, Troy, over the past 80 years, how have you changed your approach to working with families? 00:25:40.623 --> 00:25:44.443 Is it any different when it's a cremation versus a full burial? 00:25:44.843 --> 00:25:46.203 How do you deal with that? 00:25:46.843 --> 00:25:51.643 For clarification, I'm not 80 and I've only been in this business all my life, 00:25:51.883 --> 00:25:54.443 full time, a little over 40 years now. 00:25:55.143 --> 00:26:01.043 How has it changed dramatically? I still remember my first interaction with 00:26:01.043 --> 00:26:09.803 cremation, and I was a teenager, and I was asked to bury a coffee can with ashes in it at the cemetery. 00:26:10.723 --> 00:26:15.003 And a curious teenager, I'd never seen one before, so I'm opening up the lid 00:26:15.003 --> 00:26:18.923 of the coffee can, which, by the way, was chock full of nuts. 00:26:19.443 --> 00:26:23.683 Brand of coffee. I thought that was very appropriate. But still, 00:26:24.003 --> 00:26:27.643 that's cemented in my mind as my first interaction with cremation. 00:26:27.883 --> 00:26:31.003 I was intrigued by what it looked like and that sort of thing. 00:26:31.343 --> 00:26:39.263 Went on to experience watching a cremation done and things like that in my early career, which was... 00:26:39.651 --> 00:26:42.671 Probably set me up for more comfortability and 00:26:42.671 --> 00:26:46.051 having the conversation all those things built into 00:26:46.051 --> 00:26:53.331 that comfortability level which i can't say is an industry trend i think too 00:26:53.331 --> 00:27:00.451 many of us as monument builders have seen cremation for decades as that one 00:27:00.451 --> 00:27:05.271 cemetery director and your former president said, an apocalypse. 00:27:05.771 --> 00:27:10.451 But I don't think any of us see it as that now. It's just the next challenge 00:27:10.451 --> 00:27:11.831 that keeps us intrigued. 00:27:12.451 --> 00:27:18.851 So now, 40 years into it, I'm intrigued by the creativity of it all. 00:27:19.131 --> 00:27:24.291 I love the challenge of figuring out new and different ways to do memorials. 00:27:24.771 --> 00:27:29.151 And in some of those memorials, they will have cremations inside of them. 00:27:29.311 --> 00:27:32.891 And some of them, they will be buried 00:27:32.891 --> 00:27:35.931 and the memorial looks like any other traditional memorial 00:27:35.931 --> 00:27:39.211 in the cemetery the most creative things 00:27:39.211 --> 00:27:43.871 that i've done several rocks where they took them either to the woods where 00:27:43.871 --> 00:27:49.051 the cremation was scattered i've done rocks at residence where that happened 00:27:49.051 --> 00:27:54.031 done rocks where they took them to their favorite fishing spot and they threw 00:27:54.031 --> 00:27:57.851 the rock in the lake at the same time that they spread the ashes over the lake. 00:27:58.091 --> 00:28:03.491 So all of those were very creative, unique, experiential. 00:28:03.611 --> 00:28:09.271 And I think the more we do those types of things, and like Barbara said, 00:28:09.411 --> 00:28:16.591 create an interest level in having those kinds of things as the memorialization for cremation, 00:28:16.811 --> 00:28:19.471 the more that the conversation switches. 00:28:20.091 --> 00:28:23.611 Instead of the conversation for what's that thing on the shelf, 00:28:23.891 --> 00:28:29.271 it becomes, can you believe what we were able to do for this person at this 00:28:29.271 --> 00:28:33.551 place whether it's cemetery related or not cemetery related. 00:28:34.457 --> 00:28:38.797 My favorite of this past year was a client from California. 00:28:39.697 --> 00:28:46.517 She will be having her cremation placed in a columbarium in Indiana at the family plot. 00:28:47.517 --> 00:28:52.057 The columbarium that we created is totally unique. 00:28:52.397 --> 00:28:57.937 It has her character. It mimicked some of the things she did architecturally in California. 00:28:57.937 --> 00:29:04.417 It has a large safari etching with lots of African animals because that was 00:29:04.417 --> 00:29:07.797 her favorite thing to do, to go on safari in Africa. 00:29:08.717 --> 00:29:14.677 And the delight for her is that it shows her personality instead of being just 00:29:14.677 --> 00:29:17.797 an off-the-shelf generic columbarium. 00:29:18.697 --> 00:29:25.017 And she gets to put 12 of her family members there with her if they choose to be. 00:29:25.717 --> 00:29:31.677 So there's a connection there, not only to the generations of her past, 00:29:31.837 --> 00:29:37.157 but also to the generations of her future, to maybe children and grandchildren, 00:29:37.997 --> 00:29:41.137 specifically great-grandchildren that she hasn't even met yet, 00:29:41.137 --> 00:29:45.237 could still potentially be there with her. That's exciting to her. 00:29:46.217 --> 00:29:51.757 That's my favorite story of the year anyway. So, Troy, do you know why they 00:29:51.757 --> 00:29:54.237 chose the Chock Full of Nuts cam? 00:29:55.017 --> 00:29:59.677 Because that was the favorite coffee of the individual that was in the can. 00:29:59.757 --> 00:30:04.797 It was actually a can that he had set aside for his family to put him in. 00:30:05.157 --> 00:30:10.017 So I remember the jingle, Chock Full of Nuts is the heavenly coffee. 00:30:10.217 --> 00:30:14.077 So I assume that's where that. Oh, there you go. Heavenly coffee. 00:30:14.577 --> 00:30:18.637 Yes. I drink a non-heavenly coffee every day. 00:30:19.317 --> 00:30:21.617 Very good. Very good. 00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:30.480 Music. 00:30:31.037 --> 00:30:35.557 Why attend the 2025 Monument Industry Show in Cleveland this March? 00:30:35.957 --> 00:30:40.777 It's more than just an event, it's an experience that connects you with the industry's best. 00:30:41.177 --> 00:30:46.117 Our attendees say, the Monument Industry Show is a must-attend event for networking, 00:30:46.417 --> 00:30:48.497 learning, and discovering new opportunities. 00:30:49.017 --> 00:30:53.757 With education sessions, tour, and live demonstrations in the sold-out exhibit 00:30:53.757 --> 00:30:57.217 hall, you'll gain the knowledge and skills you need to stay ahead in the industry. 00:30:58.137 --> 00:31:03.077 Networking doesn't stop when the exhibit floor closes. Join us for evening receptions 00:31:03.077 --> 00:31:07.377 and exclusive events at iconic Cleveland locations like the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. 00:31:08.017 --> 00:31:12.077 Don't miss out on the connections, knowledge, and inspiration waiting for you 00:31:12.077 --> 00:31:14.377 at the 2025 Monument Industry Show. 00:31:15.057 --> 00:31:17.677 Register today and be part of something extraordinary. 00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:32.240 Music. 00:31:33.026 --> 00:31:38.746 All right. Next, I want to talk a little bit about some of the research that Canada did back in 2010. 00:31:39.326 --> 00:31:44.026 So you took your research goals one step further and contracted with the Harris 00:31:44.026 --> 00:31:48.926 Poll to try to understand the thinking of families making the decision to cremate 00:31:48.926 --> 00:31:52.326 a family member or have cremated remains in their home. 00:31:52.546 --> 00:31:56.846 Let's talk about what prompted that research and what you learned, Barbara. Sure. 00:31:57.106 --> 00:32:01.306 So in 2006, we had done what we called our disposition survey, 00:32:01.306 --> 00:32:05.126 and we tried to understand through sales data, 00:32:05.366 --> 00:32:10.186 through what Kena cremation provider members sold to consumers, 00:32:10.186 --> 00:32:12.846 what they were going to do next. 00:32:12.846 --> 00:32:15.886 Okay so it was a it was groundbreaking 00:32:15.886 --> 00:32:19.586 for its time and i think still people believe 00:32:19.586 --> 00:32:22.406 this one third rule one third one third one third 00:32:22.406 --> 00:32:25.426 one third bought urns suitable for 00:32:25.426 --> 00:32:30.746 display at home one third bought urns and urn vaults and immediately placed 00:32:30.746 --> 00:32:35.506 in a cemetery and one third expressed the intention to scatter there might have 00:32:35.506 --> 00:32:40.426 been no merchandise purchased at the time to scatter but we didn't know really 00:32:40.426 --> 00:32:42.626 what happened and in research there's these. 00:32:43.446 --> 00:32:45.886 Aspirational questions when you ask people what they plan to do. 00:32:46.521 --> 00:32:49.901 That's in a perfect world with unlimited funds, no family dysfunction, 00:32:50.581 --> 00:32:52.121 right? Everything's going to go smoothly. 00:32:52.481 --> 00:32:55.721 And then there's actually identifying what people have done. 00:32:56.021 --> 00:33:02.001 And so with this new research, we decided to approach it differently and go right to the consumers. 00:33:02.261 --> 00:33:04.561 And we did a national survey. 00:33:04.861 --> 00:33:08.781 The Harris Poll does custom surveys with different organizations, 00:33:08.781 --> 00:33:10.121 but they do marketing surveys. 00:33:10.221 --> 00:33:13.561 They do the political stuff too, but we're sick of that. And so for us, 00:33:13.701 --> 00:33:22.961 this was a custom survey, online survey, 10 minutes long with 1,505 Americans and Canadians. 00:33:23.781 --> 00:33:27.421 1,505 of each to make it nationally statistically significant. 00:33:27.841 --> 00:33:33.361 And they were qualified to take the survey if one of two things were true. 00:33:33.521 --> 00:33:40.001 They were involved in the decision to cremate and or they had ashes under their 00:33:40.001 --> 00:33:44.741 roof. And we did use the term ashes all the way through the survey because that's what consumers don't. 00:33:45.021 --> 00:33:48.981 Cremated remains is a mouthful. I never said that word before I came to Cana 00:33:48.981 --> 00:33:51.661 13 years ago. Now I've trained myself to use it. 00:33:52.001 --> 00:33:57.741 But consumers never use that term. It's inside jargon. We learned amazing things 00:33:57.741 --> 00:33:59.741 from that. And I'll share some highlights. 00:34:00.521 --> 00:34:04.601 26% of U.S. households have cremated remains under their rooftop. 00:34:05.141 --> 00:34:07.561 Let me say that again. 20, 60%. 00:34:08.361 --> 00:34:15.281 That's inclusive of all types of containers and all quantities of cremated remains. 00:34:15.481 --> 00:34:21.181 So it could be keepsake jewelry for one person. It could be a full-size urn for another person. 00:34:21.581 --> 00:34:27.421 It was the norm that people had more than one person's ashes under their rooftop. 00:34:27.801 --> 00:34:33.361 Okay, so maybe it's their spouse, but they have a jewelry with a portion of 00:34:33.361 --> 00:34:35.781 remains from a parent, that sort of thing. 00:34:36.301 --> 00:34:40.961 So when we looked at this, we thought, wow, this is muddy, right? 00:34:41.101 --> 00:34:46.181 Because if you have jewelry or a piece of art, think glass like a paperweight 00:34:46.181 --> 00:34:49.041 or a keepsake portion of ashes in 00:34:49.041 --> 00:34:53.981 an urn, are you likely to go back to the cemetery and memorialize those? 00:34:54.641 --> 00:34:59.741 Probably less likely than if you have a temporary container or a full-size container. 00:35:00.201 --> 00:35:05.241 So Cana tends to lean conservative with our estimates. And so we did so in this case, too. 00:35:05.781 --> 00:35:10.281 But we realized that if we take out the people who responded, 00:35:10.501 --> 00:35:15.101 oh, I have keepsake or jewelry and just the larger containers that are more 00:35:15.101 --> 00:35:16.801 likely to memorialize eventually, 00:35:17.201 --> 00:35:20.981 then it's roughly 21.9 million containers. 00:35:21.459 --> 00:35:26.679 Nationally. And the distribution of that amount, I wish I could give you a percentage 00:35:26.679 --> 00:35:29.259 because that's less than 26% of U.S. households. 00:35:29.959 --> 00:35:34.079 Basically, what it played out is if you have X number of cremations in your 00:35:34.079 --> 00:35:39.839 particular state, right, then assume that 26% of those are at home. 00:35:40.359 --> 00:35:42.659 What happened to the 74%? 00:35:43.739 --> 00:35:48.379 Some portion, probably the minority are in cemeteries and some portion are scattered. 00:35:48.559 --> 00:35:51.139 So that's as close as we got to quantifying scattering. 00:35:51.819 --> 00:35:55.259 We didn't actually get the firm number, but we're trying to get, 00:35:55.339 --> 00:35:59.339 and we'll do this research again, because the other thing we realized is this 00:35:59.339 --> 00:36:01.099 was the snapshot in time, right? 00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:04.759 We asked, why did you choose to cremate this person? 00:36:05.259 --> 00:36:09.519 And for the first time, the answer was not price. The number one answer was 00:36:09.519 --> 00:36:10.959 not price. It was number three. 00:36:11.759 --> 00:36:16.159 And the number one was family tradition, personal preference. That's what we do. 00:36:16.339 --> 00:36:21.819 And sure enough, we can see that since the 1970s when cremation was just a new 00:36:21.819 --> 00:36:27.199 thing, several generations of family members maybe have experienced cremation, 00:36:27.379 --> 00:36:28.999 particularly in some parts of the country. 00:36:29.279 --> 00:36:33.439 So it's just what we do now. It's a smart economic thing to do, they told us. 00:36:33.499 --> 00:36:39.019 So it was less about being cheap and more, aren't I a smart consumer for choosing cremation? 00:36:39.679 --> 00:36:42.279 Yeah, I'll pause there. Sorry, and let you ask questions. No, 00:36:42.299 --> 00:36:45.119 you're doing great. Yes. I appreciate the insight. 00:36:45.399 --> 00:36:51.139 Sometimes it's easier to listen than to know the right questions to ask. 00:36:51.339 --> 00:37:00.179 And so I think that what we're finding is that there is becoming more consideration 00:37:00.179 --> 00:37:04.339 to that, the what if, the now what do we do? 00:37:04.959 --> 00:37:09.039 Cremation is no longer a dirty word in any of our industries, 00:37:09.339 --> 00:37:11.119 right? It's a fact of life. 00:37:11.339 --> 00:37:19.879 It's not necessarily, as you indicated, even to any more, it's not necessarily the cheapest option. 00:37:20.159 --> 00:37:25.939 There is certainly some savings, but I think that cemeterians are starting to 00:37:25.939 --> 00:37:31.639 change their model a little bit because they see the rates rising and there's 00:37:31.639 --> 00:37:37.459 no way to continue to operate and maintain a cemetery on the 00:37:37.870 --> 00:37:43.170 smaller margins. So they have to look at creative ways to change their modeling. 00:37:43.370 --> 00:37:49.410 I think that you're right. It's more about tradition. It's more about simplifying the process. 00:37:49.770 --> 00:37:53.850 And again, going back to delaying some of the choices. 00:37:54.310 --> 00:37:58.870 Yeah, I do want to emphasize that because I think it's worth noting too that 00:37:58.870 --> 00:38:03.290 this has been consistent throughout our consumer research when we've done focus 00:38:03.290 --> 00:38:07.970 groups and online surveys and even older surveys in the past that people want 00:38:07.970 --> 00:38:09.210 to talk about cremation. 00:38:09.590 --> 00:38:13.610 The providers we use always tell us, look, take a while. The survey might have 00:38:13.610 --> 00:38:17.250 to be open for a month or so to get the respondents. 00:38:17.670 --> 00:38:20.510 And then within a week, they're like, we got everybody we needed. 00:38:20.570 --> 00:38:24.230 Or when we do focus group research, they say, we'll invite a bunch of people, 00:38:24.350 --> 00:38:26.170 but you can expect half won't show up. 00:38:26.390 --> 00:38:30.550 Nope. Everybody shows up and we have to turn people away because you invite 00:38:30.550 --> 00:38:33.210 nine to get six and all nine showed up. 00:38:33.450 --> 00:38:36.070 Of course, people want to talk about the people they love, right? 00:38:36.170 --> 00:38:40.930 There's an element of that, but also because the choices we as consumers are 00:38:40.930 --> 00:38:43.590 making about cremation are evolving. 00:38:43.850 --> 00:38:48.470 We're creating new traditions with every experience that we have, 00:38:48.510 --> 00:38:53.590 but what we hear from consumers is that they're still curious about what they could have done. 00:38:54.110 --> 00:38:59.290 So the same research showed that across all generations, they were very confident 00:38:59.290 --> 00:39:03.550 that they knew what their options were and equally curious about new options 00:39:03.550 --> 00:39:05.730 that could be available to them the next time. 00:39:06.110 --> 00:39:11.570 So the hunger, and I don't believe I'm exaggerating, the hunger for options 00:39:11.570 --> 00:39:15.610 around what is possible, the assumption is that cemeteries just bury. 00:39:15.890 --> 00:39:19.190 That's just all cemeteries do, whether it's cremated remains or whole bodies 00:39:19.190 --> 00:39:20.450 and caskets, they just bury. 00:39:20.710 --> 00:39:25.470 And so there's a true lack of knowledge of memorialization options above ground 00:39:25.470 --> 00:39:29.810 or in a natural setting or at home for that matter. I learned something today. 00:39:30.170 --> 00:39:33.670 So I think that this is all good news, really. 00:39:34.290 --> 00:39:40.410 We've benchmarked, we have a baseline of knowledge, and surveys are an educational tool themselves. 00:39:40.430 --> 00:39:47.130 So now those people who participated in this survey read definitions of memorialization 00:39:47.130 --> 00:39:51.370 options, understand that some cemeteries, not enough in my opinion, 00:39:51.770 --> 00:39:57.650 offer a wide variety of memorialization options, and they have some language 00:39:57.650 --> 00:40:00.030 to use to ask for that. And hopefully they will. 00:40:00.570 --> 00:40:07.390 But that's why we're going to do this survey periodically, because I think attitudes will change. 00:40:07.510 --> 00:40:11.550 So for example, we asked them, how do you feel about the ashes in their home? 00:40:11.670 --> 00:40:14.830 And I'll ask you, how do you think they felt about the ashes in their home? 00:40:14.930 --> 00:40:17.410 You're going to get this right. I know you are. How do you think they felt? 00:40:18.002 --> 00:40:22.062 I felt good. I think they felt stuck. Oh, stuck. 00:40:23.122 --> 00:40:27.302 We gave them three answer choices or six answer choices, actually seven, 00:40:27.462 --> 00:40:30.942 because you always have to give them another, but three categories of answers. 00:40:31.362 --> 00:40:35.202 Joyful reminder, comforting presence. Okay. That was the positive. 00:40:35.922 --> 00:40:39.562 Stuck would fall into practical solutions. Then the negative, 00:40:39.942 --> 00:40:45.182 the last two were like guilty, uncomfortable, but overwhelmingly two thirds 00:40:45.182 --> 00:40:48.482 of respondents felt good. Comforting presence. A strifal reminder. 00:40:49.322 --> 00:40:53.182 And I can't wait. I think we're going to do this every five years. 00:40:53.362 --> 00:40:59.142 And I can't wait for another couple years to do this again, because I suspect, 00:40:59.642 --> 00:41:02.222 although it wasn't evident in this first survey, 00:41:02.802 --> 00:41:08.762 that as, take my friends, for example, with their seven urns of cremated remains in their home, 00:41:09.342 --> 00:41:12.162 some of those relatives, they don't even know, right? Right. 00:41:12.622 --> 00:41:16.942 Some of those urns came from Europe when their great aunts emigrated here. 00:41:17.182 --> 00:41:19.462 Like they don't know these relatives, but they have them. 00:41:20.062 --> 00:41:24.542 And but their mothers they love. Right. And have a connection, too. 00:41:24.882 --> 00:41:29.862 And so, you know, it's just I think as time passes, their emotions change, 00:41:29.962 --> 00:41:32.822 too. And we're hoping to mark that with future research. 00:41:33.042 --> 00:41:35.302 But overwhelmingly right now, people feel good. 00:41:35.882 --> 00:41:41.202 And so I think when you hear cemeteries market scatter days or other marketing 00:41:41.202 --> 00:41:46.302 events, to bring cremated remains out of the house and into the cemetery. 00:41:47.122 --> 00:41:50.922 Oftentimes those marketing messages are solution-based, right? 00:41:51.082 --> 00:41:56.322 You feel stuck, you feel guilty, you feel whatever, we've got a solution for you. 00:41:56.402 --> 00:41:59.502 And they're successful, right? They're widely successful. 00:42:00.042 --> 00:42:04.542 Imagine if we can figure out a way to care about your loved one as much as you 00:42:04.542 --> 00:42:07.302 do. And we have a solution that honors them. 00:42:07.562 --> 00:42:10.802 Yeah, it's just, there's lots of opportunities here. 00:42:11.404 --> 00:42:19.584 So then most of the folks that are tasked with keeping those remains at home, 00:42:19.784 --> 00:42:25.984 look at that as a, they were chosen. It's a good thing. 00:42:26.184 --> 00:42:34.284 I'm the guardian of those remains as opposed to the keeper, the one burdened 00:42:34.284 --> 00:42:35.404 with that responsibility. 00:42:35.484 --> 00:42:39.704 It's much more of a positive embracing of that. 00:42:40.304 --> 00:42:44.744 Yeah. And if I can share a short story, when my father died seven years ago, 00:42:45.004 --> 00:42:47.164 he told us just cremate me. 00:42:47.424 --> 00:42:51.604 In fact, he wrote it in big block letters on his pre-arranged contract. 00:42:51.864 --> 00:42:54.924 So when we're sitting with the funeral director and he pulls out the contract, 00:42:55.164 --> 00:42:57.364 I see my dad's handwriting, just cremate me. 00:42:57.964 --> 00:43:01.984 And we never once spoke about whether he wanted to be scattered or buried. 00:43:02.124 --> 00:43:04.264 My parent, my mother still lives in Texas. 00:43:04.504 --> 00:43:08.204 I'm an Illinois typical family, right? We're all over the place. 00:43:08.344 --> 00:43:11.564 Where are we going to buy a space that everybody can go to? 00:43:11.664 --> 00:43:16.424 Will anybody ever go to us? All those questions are floating around and making these decisions. 00:43:16.944 --> 00:43:20.844 And I learned this from somebody and I can't remember who, and I like to cite 00:43:20.844 --> 00:43:22.344 my sources. So it bothers me. 00:43:22.544 --> 00:43:25.904 So if anyone's listening to this and I'm quoting you back to you, let me know. 00:43:26.364 --> 00:43:30.584 But the concept is 5-15-50. Okay, 5-15-50. 00:43:30.944 --> 00:43:35.284 When my dad died, I talked to my mom eventually about, okay, 00:43:35.364 --> 00:43:37.924 you want to keep dad with you and you're in the house. Great. 00:43:38.324 --> 00:43:42.464 We chose a beautiful urn. He's right there. He was right there by her chair 00:43:42.464 --> 00:43:43.924 that she sits in and watches TV. 00:43:44.204 --> 00:43:48.144 She told him the sports scores. It was great. It was like he wasn't in his chair 00:43:48.144 --> 00:43:52.064 anymore and he was in the urn. But now it's seven years later and he's in the bedroom. 00:43:52.284 --> 00:43:55.444 He's not out in the living room anymore, center stage. 00:43:55.904 --> 00:43:57.984 Her emotions are changing about it a little bit. 00:43:58.522 --> 00:44:04.402 She's feeling her own mortality a little bit. And so in 15 years, she won't be with us. 00:44:04.542 --> 00:44:08.362 And so I started asking, what do you want to do, mom, for both dad and you? 00:44:08.502 --> 00:44:10.442 We're moving in with you, she said to me. 00:44:10.662 --> 00:44:13.822 We're moving in with you, right on your mantle. I don't have a mantle. 00:44:14.162 --> 00:44:17.302 I also don't have children to leave all these urns to. Okay, 00:44:17.302 --> 00:44:20.342 what about in 50 years when I won't be around anymore? 00:44:20.802 --> 00:44:24.802 Oh, I hadn't thought of that. You've got a big decision to make, is what she totally. 00:44:25.182 --> 00:44:30.302 I'm quite confident in my family it's going to fall to me, but I think that 00:44:30.302 --> 00:44:36.282 5-15-50, it can be, or pick your own numbers and your own time frame that feels 00:44:36.282 --> 00:44:40.062 right, can be a useful way to have a conversation within a family. 00:44:40.382 --> 00:44:45.822 But also, I always challenge funeral directors to introduce this concept to their families. 00:44:45.902 --> 00:44:49.742 They may not want to have that conversation now with the funeral director at 00:44:49.742 --> 00:44:54.522 need in that moment, but plant the seeds so they can talk amongst themselves 00:44:54.522 --> 00:44:56.482 and perhaps come back for expertise. 00:44:57.222 --> 00:45:01.822 Semitarians get it, no doubt. And you're nodding and smiling, so you get it. 00:45:02.082 --> 00:45:05.862 And I think it's a useful way to frame this because you don't have to have an 00:45:05.862 --> 00:45:10.822 answer right now, but it helps you think, oh, I do have this timeframe within 00:45:10.822 --> 00:45:15.762 which I need to make a decision or I'm leaving a burden to people, right? Right. 00:45:16.702 --> 00:45:23.882 And with your permission, you now get quoted as the person that gave me that by 15 and 50, 00:45:24.162 --> 00:45:29.682 because that's going to be a new part of my conversations and probably even 00:45:29.682 --> 00:45:33.342 things that I discuss with funeral homes and clients. 00:45:33.722 --> 00:45:37.642 Please do. Excellent way to put that in context. I love that. Right. 00:45:37.782 --> 00:45:42.942 We need to learn how to pivot from, I just want to be cremated to being the 00:45:42.942 --> 00:45:44.062 end of the conversation. 00:45:44.422 --> 00:45:49.202 And really, that's the beginning of the conversation, especially when you're 00:45:49.202 --> 00:45:52.042 talking about disposition and memorialization. 00:45:52.422 --> 00:45:55.222 It's fine to be cremated, but then what? 00:45:56.022 --> 00:46:01.702 And so that's the opportunity that we have. And it truly is an opportunity. 00:46:02.282 --> 00:46:08.382 It's a challenge, yes, but it's a positive that we need to look at it that way. Yes. 00:46:09.242 --> 00:46:12.422 Yep. Pretty challenging opportunity. Yes. 00:46:12.662 --> 00:46:17.862 Was there anything that came out of the study, either on the positive side or 00:46:17.862 --> 00:46:23.202 the negative side, that you didn't expect or that you were very surprised by? 00:46:23.202 --> 00:46:25.362 What didn't fit your expectations. 00:46:26.483 --> 00:46:32.043 I was surprised how many veterans' remains are at home. 51% was reported. 00:46:32.203 --> 00:46:35.583 51% of those ashes at home were veterans. 00:46:35.763 --> 00:46:40.423 Now, granted, those could be keepsake, but given how many benefits there are 00:46:40.423 --> 00:46:44.643 for veterans to be placed in national cemeteries, that struck me. 00:46:44.783 --> 00:46:48.443 And we've shared that data with Veterans Affairs for their planning purposes. 00:46:48.443 --> 00:46:51.223 That could be a lot of people coming their way. 00:46:51.363 --> 00:46:55.083 And for planning purposes, that could be helpful. But that surprised me. 00:46:55.083 --> 00:47:00.603 And I think the only disturbing thing that we learned is at the end of the survey, 00:47:00.603 --> 00:47:05.163 we were surprised by the 26% number. We just, that was high. 00:47:05.343 --> 00:47:11.683 And so we worked with HERA to do a follow-up mini survey to validate some of 00:47:11.683 --> 00:47:14.003 the things that we thought were maybe outliers. 00:47:14.403 --> 00:47:19.763 But nope, they were confirmed. But one of those was to ask people those aspirational 00:47:19.763 --> 00:47:23.403 questions. Where would you want to be memorialized? Okay, you've done the survey. 00:47:23.703 --> 00:47:26.283 Here's all the definitions. here's your options. 00:47:26.643 --> 00:47:31.663 And we defined above ground, burial, columbarium, buildings. 00:47:32.103 --> 00:47:35.763 We just described glass front niches. We also described walls. 00:47:36.023 --> 00:47:38.023 We described scattering gardens. 00:47:38.323 --> 00:47:41.903 We described all the kinds of things you could imagine, including scattering. 00:47:42.263 --> 00:47:45.783 And then, this is why working with a professional is so helpful. 00:47:47.043 --> 00:47:51.483 We came up with this whole list of ideas and Harris said, we need to include scattering? 00:47:51.923 --> 00:47:53.123 And don't we need to include like 00:47:53.123 --> 00:47:57.543 the funeral home? Aren't there a lot of remains left at funeral homes? 00:47:57.883 --> 00:48:01.003 I'm like, oh, that would be, yeah, let's put the funeral home. 00:48:01.523 --> 00:48:03.123 And not that we want people to 00:48:03.123 --> 00:48:07.123 do that, but we want to see how many people think that was four percent. 00:48:08.083 --> 00:48:11.483 Four percent of respondents said the funeral home is just fine for me. 00:48:13.223 --> 00:48:17.423 I know. Wow. Right. And I think it's true. 00:48:17.563 --> 00:48:21.243 Still true. The majority of remains left at funeral homes are people who just 00:48:21.243 --> 00:48:24.523 don't have a plan, right? And they can't face it. They're still actively grieving. 00:48:24.683 --> 00:48:27.763 There's just, there's so many issues. There's family dysfunction. 00:48:27.923 --> 00:48:28.863 They just don't know what to do. 00:48:29.123 --> 00:48:32.383 But 4% thing, that's just permanent placement. So there you go. 00:48:32.623 --> 00:48:34.383 So we've got some work to do there. 00:48:35.503 --> 00:48:40.223 Absolutely. Yeah. So Troy, over the last 40 years, 00:48:40.703 --> 00:48:45.423 not 80, but the 40 that you've been directly involved, how have you changed 00:48:45.423 --> 00:48:51.203 your model, your interaction with families in terms of cremation? 00:48:51.423 --> 00:48:57.503 And what do you think the typical MB&A member can do with the research and data 00:48:57.503 --> 00:48:59.743 that we're getting from the CANIS surveys? 00:48:59.963 --> 00:49:06.803 I would say make sure that you have an open mind and a creative mind to rise 00:49:06.803 --> 00:49:09.463 to the occasion of what the consumer is driving. 00:49:09.923 --> 00:49:17.003 We need to make sure that we are the forefront of permanent memorialization wherever that is. 00:49:17.343 --> 00:49:20.943 We also need to make sure that they know that there's lots of options. 00:49:21.686 --> 00:49:25.906 Almost every day, I have clients that come in and they say, we're choosing to 00:49:25.906 --> 00:49:32.406 be cremated or we've already had these cremation urns or whatever, and now what do we do? 00:49:32.746 --> 00:49:37.646 And the fact that they show up at our door without knowing that, 00:49:37.666 --> 00:49:41.446 that doesn't happen with traditional burial in a vault. 00:49:41.666 --> 00:49:45.566 They show up knowing exactly what they're going to do. They're going to put 00:49:45.566 --> 00:49:48.126 a memorial in the cemetery at the head of that grave. 00:49:48.946 --> 00:49:54.186 But when it comes to cremation, even though they are intrigued, 00:49:54.186 --> 00:49:56.446 as Barbara discussed earlier, 00:49:56.866 --> 00:50:00.246 they're intrigued to have the conversation, but they're not having them, 00:50:00.626 --> 00:50:04.786 at least not with somebody that's got options or ideas in mind. 00:50:05.046 --> 00:50:11.606 I think that's part of it. I think not being limited to what our industry says 00:50:11.606 --> 00:50:13.606 are standards for cremation moment. 00:50:13.606 --> 00:50:18.406 I think we have to think outside of that because almost everything we're doing 00:50:18.406 --> 00:50:22.746 is an industry-wide thing relies on it going to a cemetery. 00:50:23.046 --> 00:50:28.406 And I think we have to be more creative. If we look at 26% didn't go to the 00:50:28.406 --> 00:50:36.186 cemetery, doesn't have a permanent place, then we need to be part of that equation as well. 00:50:36.386 --> 00:50:41.506 What does that look like? I think Barbara's story about her 70-year-old friends 00:50:41.506 --> 00:50:44.886 fits well into the 5, 15, and 50. 00:50:45.086 --> 00:50:51.446 They're faced with these are 15 years and older, and they'll soon be 50 years and older, 00:50:51.926 --> 00:50:59.506 cremated remains, and they're not wanting to put that urn on the shelf of their 00:50:59.506 --> 00:51:01.626 children, and their children don't want it. 00:51:01.626 --> 00:51:06.146 Having those conversations with that kind of language is going to be key to 00:51:06.146 --> 00:51:08.186 us being the right kind of monument. 00:51:09.416 --> 00:51:13.076 Designer and builder for the generations to come. 00:51:13.896 --> 00:51:21.976 Also, I think making sure that the conversation leans towards creative memorials. 00:51:22.196 --> 00:51:25.356 You and I both know, Mike, we've done monuments all our lives, 00:51:25.356 --> 00:51:29.796 and some of them are just plain boring. Some of them have no story. 00:51:30.116 --> 00:51:32.956 Some of them are easily dismissed. 00:51:33.696 --> 00:51:39.596 And the more we create things that aren't easily dismissed and become part of 00:51:39.596 --> 00:51:45.836 a conversation, the more relevant we become to this generation and the generations to come. 00:51:46.356 --> 00:51:53.556 It's easy to take the mindset of, oh, they were cremated, so we have no role in this. 00:51:53.776 --> 00:51:56.796 It's very easy to say that and dismiss it. And 00:51:56.796 --> 00:52:00.096 Barbara even addressed that's probably early in 00:52:00.096 --> 00:52:03.056 this process of growth that's how most funeral directors saw 00:52:03.056 --> 00:52:05.916 it oh no okay here's your 00:52:05.916 --> 00:52:08.676 cremated remains see ya and that's 00:52:08.676 --> 00:52:14.336 a disservice and I think we can have a voice in how funeral directors that we 00:52:14.336 --> 00:52:19.956 interact with think outside of the box and think in terms of having that conversation 00:52:19.956 --> 00:52:26.976 so I think we have to step up our game and broaden impact or influence in this regard, 00:52:28.230 --> 00:52:33.690 I think you're absolutely right, Troy. It is opportunity knocking at our door. 00:52:34.310 --> 00:52:38.930 It's being able to be creative, think outside the box, 00:52:39.550 --> 00:52:46.330 take a family that isn't in the midst of the grieving process and create something 00:52:46.330 --> 00:52:49.530 that's much more positive, much more meaningful. 00:52:49.530 --> 00:52:56.090 I'll say that some of the most interesting, fun, and creative things that we 00:52:56.090 --> 00:53:02.250 have done as a company are for folks that have been cremated. 00:53:02.250 --> 00:53:06.750 One example is a picnic table, if you will, 00:53:06.930 --> 00:53:13.410 that has a granite table and some seating around it that the family put in the 00:53:13.410 --> 00:53:20.290 cemetery in hopes that other people would stop and sit and have a picnic lunch 00:53:20.290 --> 00:53:22.330 and just remember those folks, 00:53:22.710 --> 00:53:26.310 remember their own loved ones that have gone before them. 00:53:26.310 --> 00:53:32.110 It's just such a great opportunity to do something that no one else would, 00:53:32.290 --> 00:53:36.930 you don't generally fit into the box of Cemetery Memorial. 00:53:37.250 --> 00:53:39.170 It's something just completely different. 00:53:39.730 --> 00:53:44.510 With that, I want to thank Barbara, unless you have any closing thoughts, 00:53:44.670 --> 00:53:47.410 Victoria or Barbara, anything you want to leave with? 00:53:47.850 --> 00:53:52.550 I just have one that I'd really love to share, and I think I'm just reinforcing 00:53:52.550 --> 00:53:57.610 what you've said, is I speak to a lot of cemetery association groups. 00:53:57.650 --> 00:54:00.490 I talk to a lot of cemeterians, members and non-members. 00:54:01.230 --> 00:54:04.850 And yes, that's a self-selected group. These are people coming to meetings. 00:54:05.050 --> 00:54:10.950 Okay, I got that. But I've yet to come across a cemeterian who has embraced 00:54:10.950 --> 00:54:13.010 cremation memorialization and failed. 00:54:13.670 --> 00:54:17.830 Okay, maybe ossuaries don't sell like you want them to, okay? 00:54:17.970 --> 00:54:22.710 But some people use those ossuaries as a stepping point to more private memorialization. 00:54:22.990 --> 00:54:26.550 My point being, cremation memorialization sells. 00:54:26.730 --> 00:54:31.890 And cemeteries that don't offer it or only offer burial, it's really time to 00:54:31.890 --> 00:54:38.010 rethink that. And cemeteries, through their policies and practices, have so much leeway. 00:54:38.290 --> 00:54:41.950 There's very few laws restricting what they can do, right? It's usually within 00:54:41.950 --> 00:54:43.770 the cemetery itself, the rules. 00:54:44.070 --> 00:54:47.430 They have so much leeway. And so I think it's time, 00:54:47.690 --> 00:54:52.350 it's beyond time, to think about how to embrace opportunities related to cremation, 00:54:52.510 --> 00:54:57.290 to draw existing lot owner families in and new families in as well. 00:54:57.290 --> 00:54:59.130 And work with your local monument builder. 00:54:59.310 --> 00:55:02.130 Obviously, you've got the expertise right there. 00:55:02.810 --> 00:55:05.730 Thank you both. I've learned so much from you. I really appreciate it. 00:55:06.166 --> 00:55:10.426 Thank you, Barbara. I've learned so much in the last 24 hours, 00:55:10.426 --> 00:55:15.526 just studying some of your research and having this conversation. It's just amazing. 00:55:15.886 --> 00:55:18.006 It benefited greatly. So thanks for that contribution. 00:55:18.406 --> 00:55:21.986 I'm glad that our associations work together to benefit our members because 00:55:21.986 --> 00:55:25.506 that's a great opportunity as well. So thank you. Absolutely. 00:55:25.946 --> 00:55:31.146 I think that in closing, that's what it's all about. It's about education. 00:55:31.726 --> 00:55:35.366 MB&A, there's a lot of folks that say, what's in it for me? 00:55:35.706 --> 00:55:38.586 And the simple answer is, right now, 00:55:38.746 --> 00:55:45.966 MB&A is the best vehicle and opportunity for anyone in the monument building 00:55:45.966 --> 00:55:54.606 industry to learn and to grow and to be on the cutting edge of what consumers are thinking. 00:55:54.946 --> 00:56:00.026 So I know that those members will also enjoy reading more about Cana research 00:56:00.026 --> 00:56:05.586 and other insights into memorialization for families choosing cremation in the 00:56:05.586 --> 00:56:07.706 February issue of MB News. 00:56:07.906 --> 00:56:13.326 The next episode is a celebration of the craftspeople responsible for the amazing 00:56:13.326 --> 00:56:15.386 monuments produced by MB&A members. 00:56:16.186 --> 00:56:21.386 So thank you all for listening to Monument Matters. MBNA invites you to stay 00:56:21.386 --> 00:56:23.486 connected through Facebook and LinkedIn. 00:56:24.286 --> 00:56:28.946 Register for the 2025 Monument Industry Show in my hometown, 00:56:29.186 --> 00:56:31.486 Cleveland, Ohio, or join us as a member. 00:56:32.746 --> 00:56:37.886 Visit monumentbuilders.org. It's a great place to start. So thank you both for 00:56:37.886 --> 00:56:40.186 joining me. Thank you. Bye now. 00:56:41.200 --> 00:56:53.375 Music.