Reading the Stone: Granite Grades, Colors and Choices

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to Monument Matters, a podcast produced by the Monument Builders of North America for all things memorialization. Each episode is an extension of our monthly magazine, MB News. Monument Matters invites everyone to listen and share. You'll find all of the episodes on Apple, Spotify and YouTube. [00:00:24] Speaker B: I'm your host, Mike Johns, CM AICA from the Johns Carabelli Company Cimrano Monuments and Flowers in Cleveland, Ohio. I'm also a past president of the Monument Builders of North America. Today's episode is titled Reading the Stone Granite, Grades, Colors and Choices. And joining me today to discuss this topic is Brandon Archer, Chief Revenue Officer of Dakota Granite. Brandon, welcome to today's podcast. [00:00:54] Speaker A: Thanks, Mike. Thanks for having me. [00:00:56] Speaker B: Absolutely. Pleasure to see you today. But before we begin, I understand from my producer that you have a very interesting. That's interesting, not checkered, but interesting past. Can you give us a little glimpse, please? [00:01:10] Speaker A: Absolutely. So, been in sales for about 15 years, but prior to sales, I used to hit people for a living. So I played in the NFL for a handful of years. So I was primarily with the Indianapolis Colts. I was a linebacker and 2007, 2008 season. So fun time. And I always tell people do it again. So you can probably see a helmet back here and some of my playing days from Kansas State University. So. So yeah, a lot of fun. And you know, I took that same competitive nature into sales and have driven a sales career and went was a road warrior for the first handful of years in manufacturing space, jumped into IT staffing for a little bit, sold people for a living, which was great and a lot of great lessons learned, and then got into more of the management space with some startups and then found myself selling rocks for a living. So it's been fun. Jake, the owner of Dakota Granite, was a former football player as well and played at the collegiate level. And so we kind of hit it off. And yeah, it was, it's been a great road. And now I've been in the business for about eight years previously with Kasoda Stone, which is a limestone company multiple generations old, over 140 years. And yeah, Jake took over that company and needed a salesperson. And so I came along and started developing that team and then had the opportunity. Jake, once he bought Dakota Granite, you know, had the opportunity then to take over and oversee all of our sales and marketing. So it's been fun journey and now here I am. [00:02:50] Speaker B: Wow, that's. That's amazing. We could talk about you and the transition from the NFL to the monument industry all day, but I'm Sorry to say that we don't have time for that. And being that I'm a Browns fan, I'm a little less interested in what was going on at the Colts. [00:03:09] Speaker A: Gotcha. No, another. Another podcast for all of that. [00:03:12] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. All right, so in this MB News article, you emphasize granite isn't manufactured to a specification. And we know this. We work with what nature gives us. So what gives granite its color and pattern? How much can those characteristics change even within the same quarry? [00:03:35] Speaker A: Yeah, this is a. This is a fun question. And, you know, I deal with this a ton, and I've dealt with this a ton in the architectural space, in the commercial space, with Kasota Stone, the sister company, Dakota Granite. And, you know, one of the biggest things that we have to convey right up front with these designers and people that are specifying the stone is that we're dealing with a natural product. There's going to be ebbs and flows in most quarries. And so with. With limestone, for instance, the sedimentary type of stone, you're going to see lots of different stuff from tons of variation and range of color. And, you know, all within the same quarry. And even our. Our limestone quarry in Mankato is a great example of that. We've got multiple layers of the bench that are completely different colors all in the same quarry. And so it's fun to go and show an architect or a designer or someone working on a project like, hey, this is what we're dealing with. And no different from the granite perspective. So when I'm in the granite quarry and I'm showing architects or clients the quarry, there is tons of variation all throughout every quarry that we have. And you'll see this. And so there's some basic makeup of granite that you'll know and you'll see and spot from the feldspar that are going to be the lighter accents. A lot of times you'll see that the biotite, that will be the darker parts of a quarry. And obviously different colors. Right. We've got our superior black, which is a very, very consistent granite, I would say. But even in that quarry, I've seen what geologists would call a xenolith, or enclaves, which are pockets of different minerals. And you'll see this in the quarry, and it's like, wow, that's beautiful, or, wow, that's ugly, you know, and you'll see that. And so there's a lot of different stuff there. A lot times we'll see, or you'll hear people say knots or ropes, segregations are some of Those other things that you'll see, you'll hear in the industry that provide a lot of the different variegation within the stone. And so even with our mahogany, you'll be. We have a road that goes down into the quarry. And it's fun sometimes when we do seldomly, but when we do take clients into the quarry, you'll drive by this area and from a commercial standpoint and dealing with designers and architects a lot, I'll see all of this variegation, and a lot of people have never seen it with our mahogany. And you'll see this going down the quarry. And it's just. To me, I'm like, wow, that's beautiful. That's. It's amazing. Right. I'd love to figure out how to. To sell that. But then you kind of learn. Okay. There's a lot of other potential issues with that because of its mineral makeup. And so even in that quarry, you'll see that kind of variance. And then when we move to certain areas of the quar will see those minerals basically ebb and flow, and you'll get different colors and you'll see that. And so we're always striving to find the most consistent, the. A good color palette of that stone. And, you know, some companies, and I, I wanted to make sure I said this, but some companies will strive so hard that you lose money and go out of business. I mean, that's the. Sometimes, yeah, you'll see this where people will try to do all these different colors and. And instead we kind of pigeonhole ourselves into this, like, hey, we have to be in this super tight range or offer this very select color. And. And instead we, you know, maybe setting the expectation that, hey, this is a natural material, it's going to ebb and flow, it's going to change. And so, yeah, that's some of the things I would say out of the gate. [00:07:17] Speaker B: Sure. Now, I would expect that in, in commercial products, you know, building material, countertops, all those kind of things, the ebb and flow is probably a little bit more acceptable than when we get into memorial work. Right. Because memorials, you don't want a big swatch of something different going across the face of a monument. Right? [00:07:42] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:07:43] Speaker B: So I imagine with having a good market for both of those, they play off of each other. Right. So that's correct. The waste is reduced as long as you have a good market for the less clear material, let's call it. [00:08:04] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. And that's a great point. And you know, we're members of the natural Stone Institute. And one of the big things we talk about is the embodied energy of stone and the industry as a whole. And when you look at comparatively to other materials, we are very low and we don't have a whole lot of this carbon buildup or makeup of different materials. And so utilize a lot of our byproduct either making other types of product, which we do at all of our quarries as much as we can. So we'll do hardscapes, we'll do landscaping, we'll do commercial work, veneer. And we'll take that and product and then from there, if there's continue byproduct, well, then it goes to the crusher and then we create aggregate. Right. And we have other partners and, and parts of our business where we, you know, we produce aggregate and you know, rip, rap or boulders, things of that nature that can be all utilized. So it's, it's a very green industry that way and very low embodied energy. [00:09:04] Speaker B: Sure. Is it still being used for chicken feed? [00:09:08] Speaker A: Ooh, I don't know if it's still. We sell quite a bit in the agricultural markets. [00:09:13] Speaker B: Okay. [00:09:13] Speaker A: Through other partners. But I know with limestone it goes into the fines from, you know, agricultural aspect from, from livestock. I'm not sure yet anymore. [00:09:23] Speaker B: It's something I heard years ago. I don't know. I don't know if that's still, you know, possibly. [00:09:28] Speaker A: I, I haven't heard it, so I'm not sure. [00:09:30] Speaker B: All right, somebody can fact check me and let me know. All right, so Dakota Mahogany, like other. Some other granites come in three grades. So can you walk us through what it means for a monument builder, the grading system? [00:09:44] Speaker A: Yes. So again, as, as I was kind of talking earlier about taking a client into the quarry, you'll see, I mean, we have 100 year old quarry, 101 year old quarry. And you'll see this kind of the history. It's kind of fun to dock through all of it. But our main quarry, our mahogany quarry, and I'll stick with that because of that, the different ranges or range, excuse me, grades of color there, it's all called the Sunset Quarry. So we have names for all of our different quarries and we'll talk specifically about sunset today and the different grades of color. And so as I was speaking earlier, you have all of these different pockets of the quarry that are going to produce either more variegation, more of those ropes or knots, or the variegation in the stone. And so you'll see a lot of that movement. And there are certain areas of the quarry that are going to produce a more consistent or less of that and very, you know, different colors. Right. That you're going to have. So the breakdown of our Sunset quarry is our best grade, our most premium grade is our select grade, which is about 5% of what we have available. And so really what that means is that our team has to be grading at all times in the quarry. So they're looking, as they're extracting, as they're looking at a face that they're opening up, they're constantly looking at, okay, how much variegation is in this face? What does it really look like, how many seams, how many cracks, how many, how many issues do we have with this? And what can we grade it out as? So that starts directly in the quarry, and then we take that block out and we look at it and examine it further and rate each one of those blocks as a select Rushmore, which is the next grade, and or a sunset block. And so those are the three grades. Sunset, it's going to have a consistent grade. It's going to be probably our most are prominent. I mean, you'll see a lot of that. It's going to have subtle black and oranges accents in it. You know, and through the years, we've had parts of quarries that, you know, give us a beautiful, you know, synergy of colors. And we can rename it or sell it as a different color. And it's in the same formation of stone, which is really crazy to think about. And even in the Millbank area, we've got multiple quarries all in that area. And as they ebb and flow in those different areas, you'll get different colors and patterns and so forth. But yeah, so going back, Select Rushmore and then Sunset, so a lot of the Monument business is going to be using our Rushmore. That's, you know, really the. The popular one there. Our select again, is going to be like, hey, I want this most consistent color that I, that I. That I can get. And with no blemishes, very little. That's what you're going to get with select. And then our sunset really is going to have more of that variegation. It's going to have movement. Right. And so someone that the monument retailers is, they want a little bit more movement. They want to see that range and they want to see that kind of variance in that natural aspect of the stone. Sunset is a great selection that way. So those are the three grades that we have. [00:12:58] Speaker B: Got it. All right, so we talked a little bit about The Sunset Quarry and the Mahogany Granite. But Dakota Granite has recently introduced what they're calling Dakota Grain. So can you describe it or compare it to other granites we might be familiar with, where they come from? [00:13:18] Speaker A: Absolutely. And so, yeah, we've, we're always constantly looking for, for new raw materials. And we've, we had. Dakota White was another previous one that's been out that we, we launched a couple years ago and opened up the quarry and our, our harvesting stone there. And then the green has been in the works for a long time. And so it's. It's been fun to finally see this to fruition and getting blocks and harvesting the material and, and getting it out. So. But no, that, that, that quarry was been. Is in Isabella, Minnesota, and it's been in development for a handful of years. We'll put it probably longer than I've been here at eight years. So. [00:14:01] Speaker B: Wow. [00:14:02] Speaker A: And so, so not all of these quarries are a quick, hey, let's go get this, let's open it up and, and harvest material right away. And that's probably one of the big things I guess I wanted to touch on too, was just the logistics of all of that. So, yes, obviously the land and all of the, the, the, the hoops that a company has to jump through to get that right, that's a whole nother process, could take years in the making. And then from there there's the infrastructure logistics that it takes to actually open up the quarry. So there's a lot of work involved and can be quite a long process and so depending on how much money you want to throw at it. [00:14:43] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:14:43] Speaker A: And so with our green, we were finally able to. To really get in there. We actually had to like, carve roads out of the, out of the forest to get in and then really start scraping the overburden, really clearing out. Okay, here's where we want to do. Open up this quarry. And so a lot of that goes along. [00:15:01] Speaker B: Yeah. And so, and for I, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt, but for our listeners, the overburden is the, the rock at the very top that's really not suitable. [00:15:12] Speaker A: Incompetent. Yeah, yeah, yep, incompetent. Mixed with, you know, soil as well, you get a lot of that. So, yeah, we're taking all that overburden off and then there's a lot of kind of trial and error, you know, as we go into. Try to find a face that we want to go into, extract the material. We'll, we'll see kind of what's going on. And again, we're constantly grading, we're constantly looking at the competency of that stone as we're going deeper and deeper into. Into the formation. And then we're also notice monitoring any changes. [00:15:44] Speaker B: Right. [00:15:44] Speaker A: So you'll see sometimes, even with our superior black quarry, you'll see as we are going deeper that the color gets darker. One of the cool things lighter in a black. That's right, yeah. For a black. Absolutely. And so there's a lot of cool nuances that way. As we're opening up a quarry and we're, we're learning and we're, we're, we're adjusting. [00:16:04] Speaker B: So there's, there's a lot involved. Right. From finding a formation to determining if it's got potential, especially for monumental use, and then deciding to actually start quarrying and, and provide it for monumental use. So, you know, it's easy to see the progression of the color in a quarry that's been operating for 100 years. But when you're looking from the top down, how do you know what are the steps do you take in from start to. Yes, this is going to go. And we're going to make it to. For memorials. [00:16:45] Speaker A: Right. And I think, again, a long process. And so what's, what's nice about most of the quarries in. In the United States? There's not a. A ton of like, brand new. Like, we've never gone into this formation before. And so there's other companies, there's other quarries that are usually in a vicinity that's in the same formation. And so with this, you guys, most of the monument world is going to know Lake Superior green. So our Dakota green is going to be in that same formation. And so not to say that it's identical, but it's going to be in that same formation. And so obviously there's testing data on that. Previously we've gotten core samples, you know, at some point during all of that logistic phase of getting into the quarry to kind of understand, okay, yep, this is the actual color. Yep, there's nothing that's different. And again, those, those things, because we have multiple channels, we, we are not as concerned. We knew that, you know, we have the ability to go into the monument market. We also have the ability to go into the commercial market, residential market, et cetera. And so we know that we can sell this in multiple markets. But again, going into the monument market with the stringent tight ranges, those are things that we definitely want to test. And so a lot of that testing, from a fabrication standpoint, Is a, is a big key to like, okay, we're going to offer this right into this market. And so a lot of that was fabrication, making sure that everything is suitable. So how well can we cut this? What's the competency of the, that stone? So there's a lot of things that way that we're testing along the way and we're adjusting and making sure, okay, how does this, how does this etch, how does this carve, how does it sandblast? How are the different finishes that we use not just polish. Right. For the monument industry, but all the other finishes that we do throughout all of those channels, all are considered while we're opening up this, this brand new material. [00:18:52] Speaker B: Sure. So then is it, is it fair to say that there are more boxes that need to be checked off if you're going to offer this in memorial or monumental world versus commercial building stone? [00:19:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I think. I don't know if there's more. I would say that, you know, each, each segment has its own, you know, requirements that we have. [00:19:17] Speaker B: So different boxes. [00:19:18] Speaker A: Yeah, they're just different boxes. Yep. So I think with like, architects, designers on the commercial side, we're going to see a lot more stringent, like, hey, we need to see the ASTM data and the testing. Like, I need to have all of that. I need to know if I'm going to put this, create a paver out of this thing, that the slip testing, the decoff test is adequate. So there's just different boxes for different industries that we, we have to hit. [00:19:43] Speaker B: Got it. Huh. Fascinating. So in the article in NB News, you encourage monument builders to share the story of stone with families. So when a family likes a particular color, how should a monument builder help them understand whether it will work with their preferred portrait lettering, artwork, or just overall design? [00:20:06] Speaker A: Yeah, I think, you know, this is where, you know, sales hats got to come on. And you got to really understand and read the, read the clients and understand what they want and really kind of steer them into the right materials. And not all the time our materials are going to be the right one. And so although we do offer a lot, a big lineup of colors that usually lend itself to different designs and what the family actually wants. And so really, I think, again, just setting the expectation that we have a natural product and then knowing, you know, okay, do they want a very detailed etching, do they want a laser, you know, etch design, you know, how detailed do they want? And then understanding, I mean, and I think this is basics. I think a lot of people Understand this, that, you know, if we get a very consistent dark black, you're going to have a great contrast. Right. So understanding the contrasts and the colors, those are obviously things that, that are going to matter right. To what that client wants. I think when you kind of incorporate the natural aspects of stone and the story, I think it's really fun to hear. Like, hey, this is how this, this, this stone gets to this monument shop display, you know, and tell those stories of, hey, this is a domestic company and this is how this stone is extracted. And so I think when you bring that to the table, I think that gives it a unique story. [00:21:30] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:21:31] Speaker A: That helps, helps that client understand. Okay. Yeah. This is more than just this piece. It's. It's, you know, it's not a, you know, a little cog in a big wheel here. It's, it's. There's an art to all of this and there's a lot of steps in that process to get it here. [00:21:47] Speaker B: Sure. Now, I know that this next question is going to be more of a question in some colors than others, because some granites are more consistent, more uniform in color than others. But what's the best way to explain to a family why a finished monument may differ from a small sample or a photograph? [00:22:12] Speaker A: Yeah, So I guess going back to what we said earlier, right. I mean, again, a natural product, you're going to have a small sample. And we, this, we're faced with this a lot in the commercial side. So this is not anything I'm, I'm not used to. There's. We teach this all the time. And as when we're doing our speaking engagements or continuing education, there's a whole entire segment just on the selection of range and making sure that we don't have this super tight range, you know, identified or shown to the end. Stakeholder. Right. And so whenever we can get multiple samples, I would always request that from a, you know, monument retailer. Like, hey, let's get multiple samples. If we're going to use a sunset grade per se, let's get. Make sure we get a good wide range. Right. I think another big piece too, though, is understanding that you can point to a display and really showcase, hey, here's a display. Here's what the, a bigger range of this color looks like. And then really go into explanation of, okay, here's the different types of granites that we offer. And these are going to be very consistent where these are going to have a range. And we have to make sure that we're setting that expectation with the End client. And as long as we're doing that, I feel like most people understand that. And, you know, obviously, pictures. You can do that, you know, with pictures. [00:23:42] Speaker B: When. [00:23:42] Speaker A: Anytime we get into pictures. And, And Nikki, my director of marketing, we kind of go back and forth on this a lot with, you know, the, the color, the lighting, you know, how it's scanned or how it's taken. I mean, different cameras. I mean, there's so much there that gets to be really challenging. And so I always go back to. Let's get the actual samples. Let's get a range of samples. If we do want to push a color that does have that range or a grade that has that range, let's get those in the hands and in front of the clients. [00:24:14] Speaker B: Sure. I think, you know, as you say, you're. You have two choices. You can set yourself up to succeed or you can set yourself up to fail, Right? Absolutely. And if you. If you don't emphasize that naturalness, for lack of a better word. [00:24:31] Speaker A: Yes. [00:24:32] Speaker B: Of the granite and the. The kind of roll of the dice factor, it comes out of this giant hole, and it may change as each block comes out. It may change through the block. Right. And some. Some granites are more consistent through, and some are less consistent through. And if you don't let. If as a. As a monument retailer, you should know what is consistent and what will vary, and it's up to you to let the customer know. Right. This is our expectation, but it might change a little bit. I can't tell you 100%. Like every Ford that comes off the assembly line, that blue is blue. Right. So you're right. I think letting the customer know that it's a naturally occurring material, there's going to be some variation. It could be a lot of variation in some particular cases. And I'll let them know up front that that's what they're looking for. And if they're not comfortable with that unknown, that possibility of being somewhat different than what they saw, then they should stick to a material that we know is more consistent. Is that something? [00:25:55] Speaker A: Absolutely. It's. It's pretty straightforward when we, when we state it like that. [00:25:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:59] Speaker A: And. Yeah. And some colors are going to, you know, obviously have very consistent. You know, year after year, they're going to be very consistent. And others that are just aren't, you know, and it has that range. [00:26:11] Speaker B: And, and some, and. And some colors are favored because they're consistent, and some colors are favored because they're variegated. Right. Because you never know what you're gonna get. Every piece is different, you know, so if you're selling the uniqueness. You say that, right? Hey, I'm not sure what this is gonna look like, but I can guarantee you it's not gonna look like the one three lots down, right? [00:26:38] Speaker A: Yep. And then I guess another piece to that, too, is just the sizing of parts. So if we get into custom designs that are oversized, that's another thing to make sure that we're setting that expectation, you know, that you're going to have some challenges there. [00:26:55] Speaker B: Absolutely. So can you give us an example of how you'd help a family compare to granite choices without overwhelming them with a lot of technical details? In other words, what's important when selecting granite for memorial use? [00:27:11] Speaker A: Well, I think. And again, this is. It's been a challenge for me to grasp all of this, because coming from the commercial world and also the limestone world, it's obviously a much softer stone, and we have to be very cognizant of where the stone's going, what it's doing, and the performance of the stone. Where, you know, a lot of times, and I'm teaching this in our continuing education classes, is that when you go with granite, you're almost rest assured that you're not going to have too many issues, you know, so that's really one thing, I think, going for granite as a whole, is that you really do have a very solid material. When it comes to the overall, okay, stone industry, we've got the best, probably the best numbers across the board when it comes to, you know, chemical resistance, densities, flexural strength, all of those things. You know, granite's going to be right there at the top. So when we get into selecting different stuff, I would probably avoid, you know, getting into the technical specifications of. Of the different types of stone and really just focus on what the family's really wanting, you know, from the design perspective. And then we know that that's very subjective. Right. And so. So really, when it comes down to it, yes, you can go into the details, but of what stone is more dense. But at that point, I feel like, you know, you're getting to a point where it's almost maybe splitting hairs. And I understand some monument retailers, they love to do that and get into that, to push one stone over another. And. But, you know, all in all, I think really it comes down to what the family really needs and what they're wanting. And so, yeah, you could certainly get into the details, but I don't know if it's really necessary at that point. [00:28:54] Speaker B: Got it. All right, so given that granite availability is strong throughout the world, what possibilities do you see for the future of granite memorial design? [00:29:05] Speaker A: Yeah, so obviously we see, you know, we see the trends with cremation and you know, we, we understand that that's going to be continued opportunity for us to continue to create designs. And so that's one big, big thing that we're doing. How can we do that on a smaller scale? How can we do things to market to that growing sector of the business? I think another piece that we are trying to do is more multiple colors or mix of colors. We're seeing that. And then also had a great conversation last week about just, you know, how do we, how do we take some of the different bronze and sculptural elements and create pieces with the stone? [00:29:49] Speaker B: Right. [00:29:49] Speaker A: I think there's so much that can go, so much that we can do that goes with other types of materials and the combination of both people would definitely find intriguing and innovative. And so we're always trying to find what that next niche or of design would be. We're always trying to come out with new designs. We love doing that, you know, especially at the MBNA conference. So, so we always come out with some new designs. And so our team internally is looking for that. And so. But yeah, I would say just multiple colors, you know, mixing of colors and different granites I think is one big piece that we want to do. And then incorporation of other elements are some different design things that we are looking at and kind of considering. [00:30:31] Speaker B: Yeah, fabulous. All right, so do concerns over the quality differ between domestic and imported granites? [00:30:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I think, you know, again, like I said earlier, the stone, you know, granite from a hole is at the top echelon of, of stone. Right. And really, yes, you can get really nitpicky and look at certain stones and say, yep, you know, this one will fade over time or this one's going to change over time. And so I think a lot of that is known with certain quarries. And so one thing to consider with new quarries is, okay, the long term variability of what's going on there. Right. And so I would say that, you know, having a domestic supplier, you're definitely going to have that with these quarries that have been around for a hundred years, you know, you're going to have and know what's going on with that, that stone. Whereas a new quarry, and this can happen domestically or internationally, you're going to have that unknown. And with a lot of the international quarries that are popping up all over the place, we deal with them, we see them, we bring in imports. And so you just don't know what's going to happen in five years or 10 years and what those concerns could be. And so from a quality perspective, I think those are the things you got to be concerned with and understand. And then obviously, then it comes back to the service and the ability to fix or resolve issues down the line. And do you want to work with, you know, a quarry that's across the world and try, try to figure out how to fix that problem, or do you want to work with someone in your backyard and domestic supplier? So, yeah, quality concerns probably, you know, are about equal in terms of domestic versus imports. I think there's a lot more import quarries around the world that, you know, that are coming into the United States that, that are popping up all over the place versus new quarries here. And so that's probably the biggest difference, I would say. Okay, it's just the amount of quarries that are popping up elsewhere in the world versus here domestically. [00:32:36] Speaker B: Fair enough. Yeah. All right. Well, we are, this is we again, we could, we could go on and talk about this for another 35 minutes, but I'm not sure how many of our listeners would still be here at the end of 70. So I think we're going to wrap up here. So I'd like to thank our listeners for tuning in today for our installment of Monument Matters, and thank you, Brandon, for sharing your knowledge and expertise with our audience. I'd love to, at the next convention hear a little bit more about that journey from professional football to the monument business. So I look forward to that opportunity. But in the meantime, the October issue of NB News gives us a glimpse inside Corey Operations. So I encourage you to read this issue and if you have a topic you'd like to have covered in a future podcast, you can leave a comment below. Registration is now open for the upcoming Monument Industry show in February. If you're not a member of mbna, we have a special invitation for you to take a first look at the show and MBNA membership. And as I mentioned, the October issue of MB News has more details about convention, so I encourage you to read this issue. And again, if you have a topic you'd like to have covered in a future podcast, please let us know. MB&A invites you to stay connected through Facebook and LinkedIn or visit us at www.monumentbuilders.org for upcoming events and webinars. And for MBNA and Monument Matters. I'm Michael Johns. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen in. If you found today's content worthwhile, then I hope you do did are Will please share the link with a friend. Your comments and feedback are important to us. We'd love to hear from you. So please drop a note to infomonumentbuilders.org and tell us how we're doing. Brandon, thanks again for joining us and you at home. Thanks and have a great day. Thank you. Sam.