Episode Transcript
[00:00:05] Speaker A: Welcome to Monument Matters, a podcast produced by the Monument Builders of North America for all things memorialization.
Each episode is an extension of our monthly magazine, MB News. Monument Matters invites everyone to listen and share. You'll find all of the episodes on Apple, Spotify and YouTube.
[00:00:26] Speaker B: Hello and welcome to episode one, season two of MBNA's Monument Matters, a podcast produced by the Monument Builders of North America. I'm your host, Mike John cmaica coming to you live from the Johns, Carabelli Cimarrono Monuments and Flowers in Chilly Willie, Cleveland, Ohio. I'm also a past president of the Monument Builders of North America. To today, I'm talking with Danielle Lehman and Steve Kesmarcik. Danielle CM, AICA, is president of Logan Monument Co. Where she began working as a memorialist 10 years ago. She serves on the MB&A editorial Advisory committee. Steve Kazmarcik, known to many of us simply as Kaz, is the shop foreman at Hunt Memorials, Inc. He's worked in the monument industry for over 30 years.
Danielle and Kaz, welcome to the podcast.
[00:01:21] Speaker A: Thanks for having us.
[00:01:23] Speaker B: Absolutely Glad we got through our technical issues and we could all be present and sharing with our fans at home. So memorialists or those in the monument business are often described as tradespeople. But today's conversation asks a deeper question and that is this are memorialist artists? So to get started, I'd like each of you to please share your career path and how in your minds artistic expression is such an integral part of memorialization.
So Danielle, you want to kick us off?
[00:01:55] Speaker C: Sure.
I started at Logan Monument about 10 years ago working the front desk and doing sales and I was lucky enough to start here where we are members of aica mbna and design is really a huge focus of Logan Monument and always has been.
I'm not formally trained in any art, but I've been learning a lot through the years and studying and trying to incorporate that into everything that I help create here for families. You know, when we create pieces, we're putting out public displays of art for people to see beyond even our own lifetime. So it's important that it looks good and it meets what the family expected and hopefully beyond what they expected.
[00:02:42] Speaker B: Absolutely. Always like to get past and beyond their expectations for sure. Steve, tell us about your history.
[00:02:49] Speaker A: I started in the spring of 93 Mason Memorial in Columbus, Ohio and it too AICA member. So design was very important, even though at the time I was more of just a grunt, you know, working in the shop. It was pretty quick, you know, once I started learning the better things in the shop, how important design was. It's not just placing a corner carving in the corner corner. It's putting it there and making it pleasing to the eye. There's a purpose and a reason why we put it in the spot we put it. And the monument needs to have flow. Your eyes should generally follow a certain flow when looking at a memorial. So it was embedded in me at a early on how important design is, you know, just for, you know, the lung longevity of a memorial itself. And then over the years, just kept, you know, doing more and more in the shop and. And working my way through all the nitty gritties and. And still absorbing as much as I possibly can even today.
[00:03:59] Speaker B: I think it's. You know, you mentioned even more so in the article, the.
The basement where you started, same place as me, more or less. Right.
I started a little. Couple of days before you did, but I was floor. I was folding drawings. That's where I started. And then I learned pretty much every little component that is part of creating a memorial for a family and having the understanding of how all the pieces. Parts fit together really makes me better at my craft. And I'm sure you feel the same way. It's.
[00:04:44] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:04:45] Speaker B: You mentioned in your article you did all the things in the beginning. The new man on the low man on the totem pole.
You start with the jobs that no one else wants to do. You're taking up the cash, you're shoveling up the cast.
[00:05:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:02] Speaker B: Shoveling sand in the tank. But all of those, and the fact that you approach those with the same kind of dedication and enthusiasm as you do when you're carving a leaf or you're sandblasting a name just speaks to the importance of understanding the foundation and all the pieces and how they build on top of each other. Right.
[00:05:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. When everything I did, even in the early days, I did 100%, you know, it. I just, you know, my work ethic, you know, through my whole career, has always been, you know, a very high standard for myself. It doesn't matter if I'm sweeping the floor. I want to be the best floor sweeper there is, or if I am shape carving, I want to be the best shape carver there is. Now, I am far from the best shape carver out there, and, you know, I have lots of room for improvement, but I still approach it every day that way.
Complacency.
Yes, complacency can get you in a lot of trouble.
[00:06:09] Speaker B: Sure, absolutely. But I think what I hear you saying is every time I shape, carve. I try to be the best that I can be. Yes, I might not be the best guy in the room, but. But I'm giving it all my effort.
[00:06:26] Speaker A: Yeah. And when I was. When I was learning, you know, like. Like I said in the article, you know, that that stuff didn't go unnoticed. I.
You know, I. I moved up in the shop when a lot of guys were staying stagnant, you know, they. They saw a lot of potential in me at an early age, you know, and then I.
When I actually started drawing rubbings, I actually thought I was in trouble because I was doodling on a piece of paper at lunch at the table. And my mentor at the time, Bob Kraker, he reaches across the table and slaps the paper, brings it back to him, and he looks at it, and he looks at me, and he looks at it, and he looks at me, and he goes, you can draw.
I went, not really. And he, like, slings it back across the table, and he goes, come and see me after lunch.
You know, I mean, I was like, man, I. What did I do? You know? And. And so I go in there and he breaks out of rubbing, and he showed me on one pedal how to draw it on the rubbing and how to get it onto, you know, carbon paper and told me to have at it, you know, And. And with that, again, it was. Every line I felt had to be perfect, you know, and even though it was far from perfect, it, you know, in my mind, I'm doing something really, really important at that time.
So it was a lot of fun learning under Bob because he was.
He wasn't, like, super strict. He was really good and lenient, but he had a standard that I learned a lot from, you know, that I really appreciate even to this day.
[00:08:08] Speaker B: Yep. I remember Bob very fondly.
Absolutely.
[00:08:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:12] Speaker B: Danielle, what about you? How many hats have you worn on your journey to where you are today?
[00:08:19] Speaker C: Well, about the only thing I haven't done is actually engrave monuments, Although I'm in the shop all the time saying, I think you missed something.
So I've pulled plenty of stencil. I've tried my hand at working some of the programs to design on. I'm still working on that. I've worked a lot on just scaling and drawing things proportionately and. And understanding all of the process. So even though I can't engrave, I could tell you how to do it, and I understand, I understand. And. And my husband wouldn't enjoy me telling him how to do it, but sometimes I do. But I understand what. What is going on. So that way I understand how to design and how it will work. If I decide to draw something, then I know that, okay, it has to be this size at least, or if I want to blend this texture, it's not going to work because it just can't be done. Or, yeah, it can be with some prodding in the back to get them to just try.
[00:09:19] Speaker B: Sure. So it sounds like there's a lot of skills that you have understanding of, but you haven't actually put your hands to. So when you say, I can't, maybe you should say, I haven't yet.
So yourself short. But I think that what's coming out of this conversation is the understanding that the better designers understand the fundamentals of what every other person's job is. Right. Especially on the production side. Because if you don't understand the limitations or everything that goes into the production side, how can you design? Right. You can design so much better if you understand that, oh, that sandblade screw is too thin or that's cut too deep and all those things. So over the years, you develop an eye for if. Even if you're not the person doing it, you develop an eye for what looks good to you and what doesn't. Right. And that's a big part of being.
[00:10:23] Speaker A: A. I mean, how many times have we all gotten that paper from the customer and it's something they designed online, and the proportions are so wrong.
They have a super detailed dove or something and they have it two inches tall.
Yeah. So, yeah, you, you, you know, knowing what can and can't be done in the shop definitely helps you up front on the computer.
So like you said, Mike, you know, wearing many hats, even if you necessarily know or haven't done that task, knowing what it takes to do that task is really important.
Yeah.
[00:11:06] Speaker B: So the fundamentals separate average work from meaningful work. So how do you learn the fundamentals of your trade? How did you learn the fundamentals of your trade? And in what ways do you see the fundamentals being overlooked in memorial design today?
Danielle, you want to go first?
[00:11:23] Speaker C: Sure.
I think for me, I've learned a lot by having a mentor.
I've worked under Bill Boone for many years, but also just studying art in general. You know, there are basics and fundamentals that apply across the board no matter what you're doing. And so learning those and building upon it and applying it to engraving work and designing for families, and so also attending all the classes that I could go to and talking to other people in the industry. What do you think about this?
How are you doing that? Why did you put that there and not here? All of that helps to build your understanding and develop your eye to see it correctly. When it comes to things that I think we overlook, there are a couple things and I think a lot of times we focus on is it legible and what's the symbolism.
And so then we just try to force everything to fit into a little box and we don't think beyond that. I think the first thing is proportion and looking at how things fit.
A lot of times I think we let a customer pick a monument and then we just fit what they want into it without asking does it belong here and is it scaled correctly? And so I think it's important to think of hierarchy and what should you see first and keeping negative space to help build that.
[00:12:54] Speaker A: Yeah, I couldn't agree, I couldn't agree more with what, what Danielle just said. But as far as like, you know, fundamentals, you know, I mean, it, it's important.
And if I had my way as far as teaching people in the shop, I would, I would for sure still be using metal letters, serps, making them, you know, draw lines on stencils and, you know, figure out how to draw SERP correctly and, you know, and everything like that and cut letters by hand because that's how I learned and I, I know 1000% that is why I am the way I am today. It's because I used to add corner carvings by hand and cut the stencil by hand.
We drew, hand drew all of our SERP lines.
You know, we used to draw, you know, the, the double line panels on some, you know, at that time, you know, and those, you know, those are, those are fundamentals that, those, all those things that I learned then, they all translate to what we do on the computer today.
[00:14:00] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:14:01] Speaker A: Now it's just, now it's just so easy to do it on the computer. We do everything on the computer.
[00:14:08] Speaker B: Well, sometimes toward discredit, I think, you know.
[00:14:13] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, really, I'm still the only one in the shop that gets out the old serps and the metal rulers and use the center find rulers and stuff like that.
Most everybody else, they still rely on just, you know, you know, at least in, in the shop, you know, I'm, I'm the one cutting the stencils and they just, you know, run with them once I cut them. But, you know, as far as, you know, overlooked, you know, kind of what I just went over, you know, is the fact that, you know, now, in a day of we hurry up and you know, get things done in a timely manner because, you know, that's what the public expects.
We don't have the time to go, you know, back to metal letters and you know, using center find rulers and hand drawing everything.
[00:15:05] Speaker B: No, but I think that, you know, again, having the fundamentals, having the understanding of those building blocks that brought us here.
[00:15:14] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:15:15] Speaker B: Enable us to use those cost saving, time saving tools to their adv. To our advantage and not be limited by some of the, you know, there's things that I could do faster by hand than in the computer. Right. You're always, if you're, if you've come up in the business in the 70s 80s, you're going to have a lot of that. Right. Because didn't have those tools, so you had to learn how to do it a different way. Now because you have that background, you look at the tools, the tools that, the technology of today a little bit differently than someone that doesn't have that background. So, so trying to share those fundamentals in a different way because you don't go through the same processes.
[00:16:14] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:14] Speaker B: Today is, is definitely a challenge for sure.
[00:16:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:21] Speaker B: So we're talking about new tools. So let's talk about that for a little bit. How have new tools and technology expanded artistic possibilities without replacing craftsmanship? And then we could talk about maybe a little bit about how some of that has actually has replaced craftsmanship. Who wants to go first?
[00:16:43] Speaker A: I can, I can kick this one off. The tools, they are great burr bits and cup wheels. Cup wheels, they offer all these great new opportunities for new textures, different textures, you know, and then the artistic value to that is you still need to know when to apply those textures and where to apply those textures. And you do still have to have a plenty steady hand to use those tools, you know, because you don't want to start marring up polish. You know, there doesn't need to be all marred up.
But it's a, it's amazing the, the new textures, you know, because I've always talked about how working with granite is not for the person that likes instant gratification.
[00:17:33] Speaker B: No.
[00:17:34] Speaker A: And even though these burr bits and stuff like that, they make it a lot faster than using, you know, pneumatic hammer chisel. You still got to take your time and it still takes a lot of time to get those textures where they're actually doing what they need to do, whether it's, you know, showing depth and light changes or just texture characteristics, you know, so you still, you know, it's it's still very much an art form.
You know, having that creativity to use and utilize them correctly and making it so that way, it just is. I mean, some of the textures we've started using, you know, they're just. I mean, it's awesome, you know, but then I always find myself falling back onto some of the old staples, like just a classic stippled and axed finish.
[00:18:19] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:18:20] Speaker A: Just because they're. They're timeless. Yeah.
[00:18:23] Speaker B: Danielle, let's talk about some of the tools or technology that you use in your day to day.
[00:18:30] Speaker C: I think on my end, because I'm designing and customer facing more than in the shop, I think having computer renderings that are colorized now and can show textures and changes in the finish has been game changing for us. Instead of using just a black and white line drawing because customers can't envision what stippling is or rock pitch when it comes to their monuments. So it helps you to really explain exactly what you are going to do and helps them see your vision.
I caution that with just we need to be the designer, we need to be the person kind of leading the train. Because there are so many things online that allow customers, like Steven said before, to just design it themselves and they have no understanding of how to do it, what's required with engraving.
And so I think as technology expands and becomes more customer friendly, we really need to just make sure we're guiding that so that way the customer understands what can and can't be done.
[00:19:37] Speaker B: Sure. And I think that one of the mantras that I try to keep in the forefront is just because you can doesn't mean you should.
Right?
[00:19:49] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:19:52] Speaker B: The tools, whether it's. Whether it's in design and drafting, CAD systems or in tooling, there's a lot of things that you can do that you couldn't do 50 years ago or 20 years ago or 100 years ago.
Well, that's great, but that doesn't always mean it's a good idea. So understanding how what you're doing impacts the final product, the final piece of art, really is really paramount. And to understand the balance of all the elements that are going into this design, this layout, this shape, you know, and how that will reflect and capture what the family is trying to do in terms of memorializing their loved one or themselves, what have you is really important.
So knowing how to properly do the things you can and choosing the right time to this instead of that, it's all part of what goes into making a good or great designer or craftsman as opposed to someone that understands what this tool will do.
[00:21:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:08] Speaker B: So tooling is great. There's a lot of advancement coming down the pike, and more and more every day, especially as AI is starting to come into the forefront, which is a whole nother conversation that we're not probably going to get.
You know, I. I see on the Internet every day these things created by AI that are supposedly real. And if you look close enough, you'd see that it's just. It's not.
So, whatever, we'll sidestep that for now. But we talk about technology. Let's talk about mentorship and having someone in your corner or someone that you could talk to. What role does mentorship play in shaping the memorial industry today? And how can you. How can experienced memorialists pass down how to see, not just how to carve.
Danielle Daniel first.
[00:22:01] Speaker C: Okay.
Well, I think having a mentor is really important because if you're just trying to go about it on your own, it's number one. It's not very much fun to have to not have anyone to bounce ideas back and forth with. But also, you can't learn unless you are working with other people. And so having somebody that you can go to that helps you see what you're doing wrong or even what you're doing right is priceless.
I think the big thing is finding a mentor who does know what they're talking about and just having an open mind, because if you want a mentor, then they're going to give you feedback, and you've got to be able to take feedback and then apply it to become better. So. And not just having one mentor, but lots of people in your corner that you can go to. And, you know, luckily I've. I've been able to have lots of people to talk to and learn from through the years, and that has really helped me to grow. And so everybody should do that. And if you're an MBNA or AICA or another group, you have tons of access to people who are more than willing to help you.
[00:23:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
When, you know, I mean, I still think of, you know, things that I learned, you know, in year one, two, three, four, five, and, you know, and without, like, without Bob being very instrumental in those first couple of years of me learning, I don't think I'd be near the craftsman that I am today.
You know, he. You know, he just. I mean, fundamentals, you know, we were talking about earlier, Bob really, that was really important to him, being good at, like, even just the basic stuff, you know, the way I approach every stone is Like, I'm doing it for the first time.
And I tell the guys in the back all the time, I'm like, you know, you know, this is how you should approach it. You know, if you set up 242 by 1 by 4 markers, when you do the first one, when you go to the second one, you forget what you did on the first one because you're approaching a new stone, a new family, and you do it its own way. So mentorship. I mean, I'm currently trying to teach a couple of guys back in the shop, and it has its challenges, you know, so, you know, I have my good days and I have, you know, my bad days, you know, where I'm like, you know, at the end of the day, I'm like, wait, why'd I tell them that? Probably wasn't very good, you know, and I'm. I think that's how I'm going to be correcting that in the future.
But, you know, it's. It's wildly important, and like Danielle said, having more than just one.
I was so fortunate to come and work for a handful of years under Charlie.
And then I have an arsenal in my phone of people that I can call at any given time and that I do call whenever.
[00:24:56] Speaker B: Yep. I've been on the other side of that phone call.
[00:25:00] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:25:02] Speaker B: And I've made it myself, you know.
[00:25:04] Speaker A: Because, in fact, I talked to your son this morning, so.
[00:25:07] Speaker B: Right.
[00:25:08] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:25:10] Speaker B: You know, it's not a. Not a craft, it's not a. It's not a vocation where you graduate and you stop learning.
Right. I've been in this business for 51 years, and I'm still learning.
I probably forgot a lot of what I've Learned over the 51 years, but, you know, it's constant.
You always have an opportunity to learn how to do something different.
Not always necessarily better or faster, but different. Because sometimes today in this, for this particular job, you have to do this this way, but tomorrow you might need to do the same thing, but because of this circumstance or that circumstance, you can't do it the same way. So you got to figure out how to take that skill and just morph it a little bit to fit the new situation. So, yes, being able to be fluid and learn and adjust, I think is really important. For sure.
[00:26:10] Speaker A: Yes. And that's. That's exactly why I tell the guys to approach every job differently. Like it's brand new. Yeah.
[00:26:18] Speaker B: And, you know, I think this goes. This speaks to why BNA is so committed to education, why we've we're developing these podcasts, why we have Hands on learning at convention, why we promote meeting and learning peer to peer. Because there's always opportunities to come up against something that you haven't seen before that someone else has.
So, you know, sometimes it's frustrating when I see that Facebook post, hey, can someone send me this carving? And I think, get a piece of paper and a pencil. And you're not, you know, but I understand, I understand. But it's being willing to, when you're mentoring or being mentored, to accept that criticism and training and teaching. You know, my dad used to. I'd go in, I'd ask my dad, dad, I gotta do this. What would you do? And he would tell me, I'd say, okay, thanks. And I would go off and I would do the job. And he would come back and he would say, well, you didn't do what I told you to do. And I said, no, this time I didn't, but I needed to hear what you said, so. So I could measure it against what I'm thinking.
So maybe I didn't do exactly what you told me to do, but it did help me think about what I planned and maybe approach that in a little different way. You know what I mean?
So getting someone else's perspective and having the opportunity through associations like MBNA or AICA or your regional association, or all of a sudden I'm seeing on Facebook all these different stone carving associations and blah, blah, blah, across the globe. The one thing that does seem to stand out is most of those guys are working on soft stone and not granite. But still, a lot of that stuff is definitely worth taking a look at. So there you have that. So let's see. We talked about mentorship, we talked about tools and technology, we talked about stick to itiveness, we talked about every day is a new adventure. Right?
But at the end of the day, I think what is drives us is the fact that we are taking a family who is at their worst possible place in life, right? They're dealing with the loss of a loved one. And we are helping them through that journey. We're helping them process that grief. We're helping them create a tribute that's meaningful to not only to them, but others around them. And. And we're just trying to find a way to give back, you know, in. In a global kind of way.
[00:29:01] Speaker C: Right, I agree.
[00:29:03] Speaker B: So with that, I think kind of out of questions. If there's anything, Steve, you think you want to, you know, last 30 seconds, Danielle, you got A comment that you think we should have covered, we didn't cover, or something you want to say, here's your opportunity?
[00:29:18] Speaker C: Well, I think it's just a reminder that we're all artists as well as memorialists, and just keeping that in mind as we create and that we really should strive to do the best that we can. And part of that is continuing to learn, continuing to push ourselves to do better and be open to trying new things and just talking with families and giving them ideas beyond what they bring to us.
[00:29:48] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree 100%. You know, I mean, we. We definitely are artists. You know, when I. When I. A lot of people, when I would tell them a long time ago what I do, they'd go, oh, you're an artist. And, you know, when I was young, I was like, no, I'm not an artist.
And sure enough, I was. I was really kidding myself then, because we are, as a whole group, we are artists. And what we do there is a lot that goes into it that even the families don't see. They don't see us working on the computer and doing, making sure everything is proportional.
They don't see the carving that goes on.
Sudden it's out the cemetery just totally blown away and totally exceeded their expectation.
So we. We definitely are leaving our thumbprint on this earth by doing what we are doing.
And I can be prouder to say that I am an artist.
[00:30:49] Speaker B: I agree. I think it's something that we tend to downplay, but it really is true. So one last quick question, and then I'll close.
So in the articles that you two wrote, you both emphasize practice, practice, practice. Never stop learning. So to each of you, I'm going to ask, is there something that you have in mind for 2026 that you want to get better at, that you want to master, that you want to dip a toe and try for the first time, anything new horizon for you for 26?
[00:31:23] Speaker C: I think for me, I want to incorporate more texture work. And beyond. Just let's add a shell, rock border, or let's do a starburst or stippling. I want to expand beyond kind of. I consider those kind of the basic textures that we all go to and really just start incorporating other uses of texture and to be more creative in that way. And so that's really my focus this year, Cas.
[00:31:51] Speaker A: All right, Danielle, you'll really appreciate this one, too. Bill Boone has always thrown me for a loop with his stone twist that is on my agenda to tackle at some point this year. I have been Wanting to do the twist for years now, and I even watched him start to finish it. Hard Rocks one Do a stone twist. And I don't know why it crosses wrong in my head, but it does.
I even stole his little foam bottle, so.
Because I would love to incorporate Matt into a.
Doing a twist and just having that on a hand or a sa.
Whatever.
Never done one.
And I just. I need to get the stone in front of me. Just do it.
It's probably way easier than it's like anything.
[00:32:47] Speaker B: It's like most things, Steve. Right. It's the doing is not the hard part. It's the knowing part. Right. Once you know how once you get the clue, the doing becomes a lot easier.
[00:33:02] Speaker A: So, yeah, I. I mean, I have really, like, been able. Real good at figuring things out on my own, but for some reason, I. I usually understand, you know, a process so easily, but this one, I don't know, it just has turned me.
[00:33:16] Speaker B: Yeah, it. It eludes me as well. So I'll tell you what.
Next. Well, next month, March, when we're down in Georgia again at Hard Rocks, I assume you're gonna be there.
Let's see if we can't spend a little time doing the twist.
[00:33:31] Speaker A: Heck yeah. Sounds good. I love it.
[00:33:33] Speaker B: All right. I'm into that for sure.
All right, so we need to wrap. So I want to thank you, Danielle and Kaz, for being our guest today, and you are not so student studio audience for taking time to tune in the February issue of MB News is Tooling and Carving issue, which features articles from both of our guests. So I encourage you to read this issue, and if you have a topic you'd like to have covered in a future podcast, please leave a comment. Again, thanks for listening to monument matters. MB&A invites you to stay connected through Facebook and LinkedIn or visit www.monumentbuilders.org for upcoming events and webinars for MB&A. I'm Michael Johns. If you found this discussion worthwhile, and I hope you did, please take a minute and share the link with a friend for comments and feedback. We'd love to hear from you, so please drop a note to infoonumentbuilders.org so with that, I say have a great day. If you're looking for the impending storm, I hope it has passed. It's going to get cold, but summer's on its way.
[00:34:36] Speaker A: Bye now.
[00:34:38] Speaker C: All right. Bye.
[00:34:45] Speaker B: Sam.
