Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to MB&A's Monument Matters, a podcast produced by the Monument Builders of North America. For all things monumental, MBNA is a 119-year-old association whose mission is to define and promote memorialization in a viable, innovative and diversified way for its members and to enhance awareness of the memorialization by the general public and the entire remembrance industry.
In that spirit of promoting memorialization, the MBNA Marketing Committee is providing these podcasts as an extension of our monthly magazine, MB News. Each podcast episode features a discussion related to a magazine theme. Monument Matters podcasts invite everyone to listen and share. You'll find all of the episodes of our first season on Apple, Spotify and YouTube. I'm your host, Mike Johns, CMAICA from the Johns Carabelli Company, Cimmerano Monticello and Flowers in Cleveland, Ohio. I'm also a past president of Monument Builders in North America.
So welcome to another exciting, mind blowing episode of MBNA's Monument Matters. Today I'm talking with a panel of memorialists who participated in the 2025 School of Hard Rocks in Alberton, Georgia. For those of you who may not know any or all of today's guests, let me introduce them to you.
First off.
First off, please welcome one of my closest friends, Bobby Maddows from Maddows Monuments out in Hayward, California. Bobby's a fifth generation memorialist.
Next is Houston Gordon from Brookhaven Monument Company in Brookhaven, Mississippi.
Brookhaven Monument Company. Wait, does that mean you're related to a Southern gentleman by the name of Dave Pitt?
[00:01:49] Speaker B: The one and only.
[00:01:50] Speaker A: The one and only.
And finally, Aaron Family, another fifth generation memorialist. Aaron is from Ohio Monuments in Toledo, Ohio. Oh, attaboy.
All right, the School of Hard Rocks not only teaches technical skills, but also offers a creative space. So please tell us a little more about yourselves and your backgrounds and share how you're involved with Hard Rocks. So, Bobby, let's start with you. How did Hard Rocks come about?
[00:02:20] Speaker C: That's a much longer story, but we'll get into that as the podcast unfolds. I've been involved since the first year when it was Rock Camp 2004, and every year since my first year I was a student. My second year I came on as staff and third year Charlie and I became partners and have been partner in the enterprise ever since.
[00:02:45] Speaker A: Houston, you're a veteran of the program. How many times have you participated?
[00:02:49] Speaker B: I just finished my third year in a row. I'm going my fourth year. I'll be going next year. It came about just as part of the ritual of working for Brookhaven Monument and it was right up my alley. I like to work with my hands, so it was something I definitely wanted to do and glad I've continued to do it.
[00:03:08] Speaker A: So what got you interested?
[00:03:09] Speaker B: Initially I didn't know anything about it, and then Uncle Dave was like, there's a rock camp. It'll teach you more about carving and hands on stuff. And that's what I've always done most of my life anyway. So it was second nature for me to catch on. And I feel like I've caught on fairly quick. And it helped me with so many different aspects from daily duties to. To more design work. It's something I plan on continue doing.
[00:03:34] Speaker D: This was my first time to Hard Rocks and I think it was peer pressure that got me there. They just said, hey, you gotta come.
And I work in a family business for a long time. I knew enough to be dangerous, but I didn't really know the correct ways to do everything.
So that my whole thing that I went to Hard Rocks for was just learn from peers how to be proficient when he needed to do certain things on stone.
[00:03:56] Speaker A: And that's what brought me there to, to Houston. And Aaron, again, in your day to day, how much of what you experience at Hard Rocks do you actually apply?
[00:04:09] Speaker B: A vast majority, actually, just from cleaning up the edges on a die or just having to cut off some of the base, just knowing how to work your chisel and just work any. All your basic hand tools that you either did not know you needed or knew you needed and knew you needed to freshen up on it.
Just about every aspect of your daily duties to the regular retail monument maker.
[00:04:33] Speaker D: Yeah, I would say every day you use that. How am I going to do this finish? If I sandblast this stone, what's the outcome going to look like? Can I do rock in there? Can I put starburst in it? When you design a monument, it's hand in hand, I do believe.
[00:04:48] Speaker A: Okay, so Bobby, back to you for a minute. What? Tell us a little bit more about how this all got off the ground and became what it is today.
[00:04:59] Speaker C: Okay. This is basically the brainchild of Charlie Clinton. And in the 1990s, Charlie was traveling around with MBNA and he was doing design courses.
And he started working with Johnson Granite Supply, Trippin Raleigh, and they would sponsor him to do workshops.
And that evolved into what Charlie describes as an obvious need for taking a big, giant step backwards.
So what I mean by that is he started doing these workshops 25 years ago, 30 years ago, with hands on teaching at regional organization shows, how to use the hand tools and it might be two, three hours as a part of a show now. It's so common that everybody knows what I'm describing, but back then nobody was doing it. And that morphed into the idea of Rock Camp and they decided to have a standalone workshop. And so workshops have been taking place forever. But workshops for this specific skill set and this specific trade.
Three days standalone, like I said, had never been done before. So the first two years were sponsored by Johnson Grant Supply and Tripp and Raleigh really believed in it and it changed a little bit. And we ended up moving to Keystone Memorials for the better part of 12, 13 years.
We had a great run there. They were unbelievable hosts. And it moved to Yankton for a year when we were hoping that our friend Scott Lukin was going to be able to host every year.
As most people know, Scott passed away tragically.
And so we moved back to Elverton, back where we started. And we spent that 20th year celebrating at Johnson Grand Supply again.
And the last two years we've actually been at Tanner Lewis Place, Lewis Transcontinental in Alberton.
And it's been incredible. So we've moved around a little bit, we've changed formats a little bit, but in 20 years it's done nothing but grow.
And we're at the point now, with the help of Facebook and a lot of history where generally when we put out dates, we're sold out in three or four hours and we usually have a wait list of 10, 15 folks. So it's really exciting. It's grown a lot in the last 20 plus years.
[00:07:33] Speaker A: Can you talk a little bit aside from the gentlemen that are with us today, can you talk a little bit about the typical or atypical attendee?
[00:07:44] Speaker C: Yeah. So I know we're going to talk about the aims later, but we have two different groups. We have a group of folks that have been and that continue to come and Houston's in that list. We're hoping Aaron will become part of that community.
And then we're always trying to get new people in as well. And so part of why the Ames was developed was to create space for people that have been trying to get in. We hear all the time that I've been trying to get in for three, four years and I finally did. And so we tried to focus on making sure at least 20 new people get in each year.
But the typical participant is either an owner or it could be an employee, a key man in the shop.
We have all Kinds of folks that.
[00:08:32] Speaker A: Well, careful. You mean person.
Yes, yes.
Because there are an awful lot of. There's a great number of women who participate.
[00:08:43] Speaker C: Yes, that is true.
[00:08:46] Speaker D: And they're awesome, too.
[00:08:48] Speaker A: Didn't mean to take you off topic. Go ahead.
[00:08:50] Speaker C: Yeah, so we have all walks of life, people from all over the country, and we've got folks from Canada that come every year.
So it's an incredible group of people, and it's very diverse. Men and women, Americans, Canadians, everybody coming.
[00:09:06] Speaker A: Together to carve stone and oftentimes have never had a chisel in their hand. Correct?
[00:09:13] Speaker C: Yeah. We get people that have a lot of experience and some that have never touched a tool, and it's important to have both.
So even if you're a designer and you might never use the tools, understanding how stone breaks and the textures it creates and the colors and the contrast, that's really important in design work as well. So we believe everybody should experience it at least once.
[00:09:39] Speaker A: So hard Rock is 20 some years old.
It's morphed and developed along the way.
But I think one of the greatest things was the development, as you quickly mentioned, of the AIMs. An AIM is an alumni instructor mentor.
Why don't you talk about why they're so important and what precipitated using them at all?
[00:10:05] Speaker C: We had a need for space. Right. We can only accommodate so many people, and the wait list was growing. So we have a couple things happening at the same time.
We had alumni hard rockers that wanted to continue participating, and we also had a new group that wanted to come in.
So another one of Charlie's amazing ideas was creating this AIMS group. And what that did is it filled both voids. So it allowed us to take 10 alumni and make them instructor mentors, which opened up 10 spots in the workshop. And so we're really proud to say that we're the only workshop that has a three to one teacher to student ratio. You can go to the finest private school in America and not get three students to one teacher.
So what those alumni instructor mentors really do is they carve stone themselves, but they spend time with their three participants, helping instructions, helping mentor, and taking them from. I've never been here before and what are we doing to.
In most cases, a finished piece by the end of the workshop.
And Houston can probably speak to it better because he's had one and he's going to be one Aaron as well.
What do you guys think?
What was your experience with your aim?
[00:11:30] Speaker A: I was Houston's latest aim.
[00:11:32] Speaker B: So, yes, it's incredible what you can learn in such a short amount of time. And I'm never subjective to quit learning. I know my first year I had absolutely no idea that you know what to do, especially with chisel. I knew that a 4 inch blade would cut into a monument, but I thought I knew how to work that, but I didn't and I didn't realize the advancements and tools over the last several years as well. Just having a shoulder lean on just to look up and ask him a simple question means all the world because nobody there knows everything. And having so many different opinions and people walking by and giving their opinion, it means everything.
[00:12:12] Speaker D: Yeah, I think the aims are great. They walk around and just like Houston said, they help you out. You got a question and just general advice and it's great. But then there's also other aims that would come over and look at your project too and help you out. I use Mike as an example and Charlie as well. They over there and saying, hey, do this. There's just, there's plenty of help and the way that is given to you, it's just in a great manner. It's. Everybody is there to learn, so it's a great environment for it. You're not looked down upon because you don't know a tool. I guess that's the biggest takeaway I got for this being my first year is they're like, oh, you don't know that. There's none of that. It's more, hey, you're here, let me show you what to do. And that was my biggest thing is it's just a great environment. Everybody is willing to step in there if you have a question and get you up to speed.
[00:13:00] Speaker B: It's incredible the amount of talent that's there and how quick it'll humble you too because you have, you'll have people come up and just ooh and all over your, whatever you're building and blow your head up and you're like, oh, I'm doing good, I have a chance of winning the mallet. And then people like just different people just blow my mind every year of what they can create and how far behind I stay.
[00:13:22] Speaker C: And that's one of the most important things to remember the stone that we get. First of all, we partner with a lot of amazing companies in Alberton that supply material, but it's all been discarded. We do try to teach the rules and how tools work, but as Charlie says, the only way to know if a rule is any good or not is to break it. So we do try to break Some rules. We do try to take things as close to the breaking point as possible.
Because this stone's already been discarded once. It's already been thrown away. It's okay to make a mistake. It's okay to fail. It's what you learn to do and what you learn not to do in the process that makes the workshop so valuable.
[00:14:09] Speaker D: So in the end, I think to the point of fail. I'm sorry, Mike, go ahead.
[00:14:14] Speaker A: I was just saying that in the end, there is no fail. Because you learn something from the experience.
[00:14:21] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:14:22] Speaker A: Sometimes it's what not to do.
[00:14:24] Speaker D: And I think in our daily life, we can't fail. That's the problem. We're working on a piece that's going out to the cemetery, and we're on edge because we can't mess it up. And that's why this is beautiful. Because if you wax something off, it doesn't work.
You get to try again. And I think that's how you learn.
[00:14:41] Speaker C: Absolutely. And that's a great point, because, again, to reiterate, we don't have the ability to make a mistake. And when you're there, you have nothing but freedom to be creative. And our hope has always been that what you learn in that process, you can bring back and implement in your business in a way that you never were able to before.
[00:15:05] Speaker A: I can relate to. So, no. Let me ask this question, Aaron. As a first timer, you have a little bit of understanding what's going to happen over the coming days.
Did you have anything in mind? Did you have a plan before you got there, what you were gonna make? How did that all work for you?
[00:15:23] Speaker D: I did. When I said yes to this, I had an idea what I wanted to do.
I had it in my head when I came there. I wasn't sure how it was gonna work, but in my head, I knew what I wanted to make.
But I think the stone dictates it, once you get it, of how it's gonna work out, and the help of your aims and your peers of how to attack it, make it look different. But I. I definitely had a set idea what I was going to do.
[00:15:47] Speaker A: Okay. Houston, were you the same?
[00:15:50] Speaker B: Yeah, I had a great idea. I'm an ASA associate member as well. So our last ASCA meeting, we were talking about the design of how to inspire from perfume bottles, clone bottles and whatnot. So I had that in mind. I was like, I want. I'll make a draw. Had a little drawing drawn out and everything, and showed up early so I can possibly find the right stone and could not have gone any further what I wanted to do. But in the end it came out great and I was still satisfied.
[00:16:21] Speaker C: Yeah, Houston's piece was incredible and I should mention we'll talk about the amount here in a little bit, but Houston could not have been closer to winning that this year than he was.
It came down to one vote and he did an incredible job. And he really points out that it's not about where you start, it's where you finish. And so sometimes when you start a piece, it'll take you in a direction you weren't expecting and usually that's better, that's a better place.
[00:16:50] Speaker B: That's what makes it great. By having the ability to just dig in deep, just go as far as you want and push those limits. Because in the end, yeah, it might hurt your hard a little bit if it breaks, but in the end it really doesn't matter. So you can dig deep and stretch the limit. I like to do that.
[00:17:07] Speaker D: The hands on part of it too. I think we all day to day can get wrapped up in our office and paying bills, employee things and just to have your hands out there working on something again that if it breaks, if it comes out perfect, it's great. It's just in our business, it's a nice getaway for that. It really helps to just really focus just on that one thing.
[00:17:28] Speaker C: There's the collaborative element as well. And so another plug to the Ames is that they have brought hard rocks to another level. And so to have that collaboration happening, that was really what we always dreamed of.
Charlie's been so great at helping the workshop navigate toward those things that make it better. And yeah, that collaboration, it doesn't just stop at 4:00 clock and we put the tools down. It spills over into the evening, into conversations and friendships. That three, four days a year when we all get to go and play and make things in Alberton and for.
[00:18:08] Speaker A: Some starts at what, 5:30 with a morning walk.
Do I have that right?
So it is a long process.
It's. You have stone in your hand, you're eating lunch, you're talking, you're learning from each other, you're bonding with each other and you're coaching each other.
It's really quite an amazing opportunity. I know my first year I had been carving lettering for years and I was really intimidated. I wasn't sure what I was going to do, how it was going to turn out.
I found a piece of stone and really it did start talking to me and it turned into something far different than where I had started.
I'm not talking about the figure, Aaron. I'm talking about another piece.
[00:19:06] Speaker D: Thanks for the clarification.
[00:19:07] Speaker A: Right, Yep. But just to be able to operate in that space where you don't have to worry about a customer coming in or this deadline for that or whatever else is going to take you away from being in the moment of creativity. It's just a space that I can't compare to anything that I've experienced.
So it's invaluable to me for sure.
[00:19:35] Speaker C: Any amount of time you can focus on one thing. To your point, Mike, a lot of people will throw the headphones in for 20, 30 minutes while they're working, take the headphones out and talk with their peers.
And over the course of.
Over the course of the three.
Over the course of three days, it's amazing how much development happens. You do more learning and carving and three days than you probably do throughout the entire year. In some cases more than people have done in their entire life.
And in three days you can really learn a lot.
[00:20:14] Speaker A: I think that it's amazing to me how many first timers show up and how many of those first timers, either the carving of stone is so far away from their. Every day you scratch your head, why are you here?
But all of those people are changed by the experience.
And not only are they changed by the experience, but they change the people around them at the same time. It's really.
It's on many, in many ways, it's difficult to convey to someone that hasn't been there what it really is all about.
So we talked about anybody can participate. You don't have to be an expert. You don't have to be a novice. You can be anywhere in between.
We've had.
There have been people from all different aspects of the industry that have participated and have grown and helped others grow as a result. Right.
So it's becoming a bigger and bigger process and project that doesn't happen in a vacuum. Bobby, why don't you take a minute and talk about some of the folks that have supported Hard Rock over the course of its lifetime, whether it's through space or materials or tools or financial. Who are those people behind us?
[00:21:51] Speaker C: It's a long list. Honestly, what got us going in the beginning was Johnson Grant, Supply tripping, Raleigh, believing in the workshop.
So that was our first home. And then, as I said, this all starts with Charlie's creativity and imagination and the support of Johnson Granite sponsoring that effort.
And then it bleeds into Keystone. And all the time we spent at Keystone memorials and the Oglesby family, just incredible people. Really supportive. We're so grateful for them. We still, even at our new location, we still get stone from Ross and George. And we're so grateful for it. It's funny, it's become a thing now that people around town know that we want the wiresong drops, so a lot of folks will stick those back behind their shed. And when we come to town, we start getting phone calls and text messages to come by that they have something interesting. Tripp and Tom, Ross and George from Keystone.
And I'd be remiss if I didn't mention Scott Lukin. He was a student that became staff, that became a partner of Charlie and mine, and Scott hosted in 2021.
And so really grateful for what he did, what he brought to the Hard Rock team. He took us to another level. Scott started off, as I said, a participant student, and we realized very quickly that he was better than all of us and he went into professional sculpture. And like I said, he hosted Hard Rock.
So really grateful to Scott.
And most recently, Tanner Lewis Transcontinental and Porcelains Unlimited. When we got in a tight spot and we needed a place, Tanner welcomed our group with open arms.
And to explain what that looks like, it's about 50 people rolling into town. It's like a circus. We've got bankers and we've got air hoses and we have electrical lines and needs and we take up space and we bring in stone and we make a lot of. We make a lot of dust. And Tanner just stepped up in an amazing way. And we're so grateful to Lewis Transcontinental and Tanner Lewis specifically for bringing us in. Now, in terms of people that have supplied stone, again, Keystone, Charles and Childs Majestic Memorials of Marble, Matthews Granite Stone Future, the list goes on and on. But one thing to mention is that we do partner with Miles Supply and Grant Sales.
And the idea there is that during the workshop, there is always a vendor with tools on site that you can purchase. So if you're a very first year person, it gives you the ability to go to their table, look at things you might be interested in. I know Houston and Aaron, we all end up going to the table and buying things, right?
So it's really helpful to have those tools right there on site. So Miles and Granite Sales have been terrific in supporting Hard Rock as well.
Yes.
Yeah. The Elderton Granite Association, Chris Kubist, and specifically Matthew Pruitt. Matthew's on site with us every single day. Matthew knows everybody in Elberton and you want to talk about a liaison or the concierge if you need anything. Matthew steps up and has helped us tremendously and globally. The Elberton community, the town of Elberton and all the companies there, we've never been told no once. It's just a, it's an amazing place to carve stone.
[00:25:41] Speaker D: Yeah, I think as a first timer I can really speak on that. Just I don't think I've been to Elberton since I was a kid and I just couldn't believe the community there.
Everybody rolled out the red carpet, hey, what do you need?
How can we help you? And it's changed who I buy things from, honestly, just from knowing supplies, where to get grinding wheels, where to get chisels. It was very informative just for that aspect.
[00:26:08] Speaker A: Do you plan to go back?
[00:26:09] Speaker D: Aaron I really. Yes.
I don't know if I can make it this year. I'm trying.
[00:26:14] Speaker A: All right. And Houston, what keeps you coming back?
[00:26:17] Speaker B: Camaraderie and the hunger to just keep learning. I'm still fairly new in the industry. I'm going on six years now. I've been around it my whole life. But for everyday monument maker, I'm going on six years so. So I have a lot to learn and any chance that I can get out of the office or get out of the shop and go have some fun and stir up some dust, I'm all for it.
[00:26:42] Speaker A: Dave he means that in the most positive way possible.
Just to be clear, it is again, aside from the hands on experience, just being able to connect with 50 some people from across the country who do similar work in not so similar environments is very interesting and informative and it gives you an opportunity to learn on a scale that you just, you can't anywhere else.
[00:27:20] Speaker C: So it, I think it's important to mention as well, we're talking about people and companies and support.
There's been 14 of these over 21 years and there's been hundreds of participants, hundreds in terms of companies that have supported dozens.
So it's hard to name some and for fear of not naming all. But I do want to mention that there's just been an incredible amount of support.
Even the folks that came once and never came back or the companies that provided granite 10, 15 years ago, it'd be impossible to name them all. It's just been an amazing evolution and the support's been off the charts.
[00:28:06] Speaker A: I think that we are starting to run out of time here. So I will just go once more back to the group. Any one of you have any last comments that you want to make, any takeaways, things that you want to make sure that the audience understands about Hard Rock or your experience?
Houston, you want to go first?
[00:28:24] Speaker B: Yeah. Any hesitation on your part that you've. You're just finding out about it. Just get on the list. It's. If you're in the industry and you do this every day, it's lifechanging. It's life changing the people you meet. Always go by the motto, I try to. I try my best not to be the smartest one in the room, and you're not going to be the best carver in the room. There it is. If you're eager to learn and you want to do better and succeed, and it's definitely one of the stops you need to make.
[00:28:51] Speaker D: Yeah, I think Houston hit all points there. It's just, you got to try it, you got to do it, you got to get there. Don't worry about what tools you have, what tools you don't have. I couldn't believe people just handing you tools, their own tools that they've used for maybe even 10 to 15 years or longer. And here, try this out. See what it does.
It's just, you got to go there and try it. I think we could sit here and tell all the high points all day, but you got to try it.
[00:29:19] Speaker C: I'm honestly just so blessed to be a part of this community, and I've said that since day one, since. Since the very first rock camp back in 2004, and it's only gotten better year over year, and it's an incredibly large blessing in my life, and I'm fortunate to be a part of it. So I would echo Houston and Aaron's in saying that if you're interested, get your name on the list, and I'll.
[00:29:48] Speaker A: Just share a quick story.
[00:29:49] Speaker C: There's a gentleman by the name of Sergey Magnovsky from California. When we were at Scott's place the year he passed away in 2021, Sergi pulled me aside and said, I've been trying to get in for five years. And I finally did.
I said, you're kidding. It's taken that long? He said, yeah, but I never gave up. Sergi won the mallet this year, so it's amazing how stories like that just keep happening.
[00:30:20] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:30:21] Speaker A: And thank you. I forgot to talk about that. So please tell us about the mallet. Tell us a little bit about Scott. What is that whole dynamic about another.
[00:30:32] Speaker C: One of Charlie's ideas? I know he keeps sounding like a broken record but when we moved to Keystone in 2006, Charlie had this idea that as we create pieces, we could put them outside and put them on display and that would create space to make new pieces, but also provide some inspiration for all participants to go out and look at what's been created.
And we realized very quickly that that could turn into a competition and be fun to give out an award.
Charlie has these really cool stone carving mallets that we give away as a trophy. And there's a medallion that goes in that says School Hard Rocks.
And so that award goes to the piece that is voted on by all the participants as the most unique piece of the weekend. And so each year that gets awarded to one participant for the piece that everybody votes for.
Now, when Scott passed, we changed the name of that award to the Lucan. It was the Mallet and now it's the Lucan in honor of Scott.
[00:31:41] Speaker A: Thanks, Bobby.
[00:31:42] Speaker B: 2025. I'm coming.
[00:31:44] Speaker C: I know you are.
[00:31:46] Speaker A: All right, so I, I thank you all for joining us to give us a little insight into the world of the School of Hard Rocks to our listeners out there.
It may be a challenge to get in and get on the list, but I don't think I have come across a single individual that hasn't really said positive things about their experience.
It just, you have an opportunity to learn and to teach at the same time. It really doesn't matter your skill level because you can be student and teacher in this event at the same time.
It just depends on what time of day it is and who's doing what where.
So with that, I think our time is coming to a quick end.
I want to thank you fellas for joining me and joining our audience.
The June issue of MB News has an article and photos from the 2025 School of Hard Rocks. So I encourage you to read that issue and also follow the School of Hard Rocks updates on their Facebook page so you will learn when open enrollment for 2026 is going to take place.
So thanks for listening to monument matters. MB&A invites you to stay connected through Facebook and LinkedIn or visit www.monimalbuilders.org for upcoming events and webinars for MB and A. I'm Michael Johns. Thanks for taking time out of your day to listen. If you found this worthwhile, please take a minute and share the link with a friend for comments and feedback. We'd love to hear from you, so please drop us a note to infoonumentbuilders.org have a great rest of your day. Thank you.
[00:33:36] Speaker B: Thanks.
[00:33:36] Speaker C: God.
