Episode Transcript
[00:00:05] Speaker A: Welcome to Monument Matters, a podcast produced by the Monument Builders of North America for all things memorialization.
Each episode is an extension of our monthly magazine, MB News. Monument Matters invites everyone to listen and share. You'll find all of the episodes on Apple, Spotify, and YouTube.
[00:00:25] Speaker B: Hello and welcome to season two, episode three of MBNA's Monument Matters, a podcast produced by the Monument Builders of North America for all things Memorialization.
I'm your host, Mike Johns, CMAICA from the Johns Carabelli Company, Cimarano Monuments and Flowers in beautiful Cleveland, Ohio. I'm also a past president of the Monument Builders of North America.
Today I'm talking with our guest, Dr. Tanya Marshall about disposition and cremation. What the data really shows. Dr. Marsh primarily teaches property decedent estates and trusts and the only course in a US Law school on funeral and cemetery law. Her scholarship focuses on laws regarding the status, treatment, and disposition of human remains. Marsh is the author of the Law of Human Remains 2015, the first treatise on the subject in more than 50 years, and co author with Daniel Gibson of Cemetery Law, the Common Law of Burying Grounds in the United States, also 2015.
Hello and welcome to our podcast.
[00:01:32] Speaker C: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:01:35] Speaker B: So before we get into the data, tell our listeners why you began studying consumer attitudes toward disposition in the first place. What question were you trying to answer?
[00:01:44] Speaker C: Sure. So there were really a couple of different questions that I was interested in trying to answer. Well, I mean, the most fundamental question for everybody is what do consumers really want?
Because as you know, we're in a time of rapid change in death care. Consumers are going to state legislatures across the country and asking for natural organic reduction or human composting to be legalized. There's still movement to legalize alkaline hydrolysis. Those changes are happening very rapidly. And so there's a question for policymakers. Are these new methods of disposition something that people really want? There's a question for folks in the industry, are these methods of disposition that people really want? And then we're still seeing the shakeout from the rapid rise of cremation and the impact that that has had on burial and cemeteries and monument builders. I'm sure in particular. Right. All of those related tensions. So we've seen what the last 50 years look like, but can we get any clues about what the next 50 years are going to look like? So that's really the fundamental question that I'm trying to get some insight into with the work that I've been doing.
[00:02:59] Speaker B: Great. Okay. So an upward trend in Cremation has seemed inevitable.
What do you, what did your 20, 24 and 25 findings reveal that complicates that narrative?
[00:03:11] Speaker C: Sure. So the actual cremation rate in 2024 was about 60. I think it was 61.8%, according to the Cremation association of North America. And so.
Well, let me talk for a second about, if I can, the structure of the survey and what I was asking people.
[00:03:29] Speaker B: Yes, please.
[00:03:31] Speaker C: So I asked American adults over the age of 18. I gave them definitions of six different methods of disposition. Casket burial, green burial, cremation, alkaline hydrolysis, natural organic reduction, and donation to science. Because those are the six methods of disposition that are legal in the United States, although two of them aren't legal in every state, but the other four are. So gave them a definition and then asked them, are you aware of this method of disposition?
Do you know anybody who has experienced it, and would you consider it for yourself? And then at the end of the survey, I ask them to rank order.
So awareness of casket burial and cremation are super high, almost universal. 99 point something percent of people have heard about those. And that makes sense, right? Because as I said, right now about 62% of people are being cremated and about 35% of people are receiving, you know, traditional or, or as I defined it in the survey, casket burial.
And then I ask, would you consider those things again? Cremation? Very high. 73% said they'd consider it, 64% said they'd consider casket burial. Not surprising. Those are the two predominant methods. But then I asked them to rank order their preferences.
And what was interesting was when you take people who said cremation was their first choice, you have in the 30s, I think 36%, no, I'm sorry, 34% said cremation's their first choice. But the actual cremation rate, 62%. Right. So there's a big mismatch there, a big disconnect.
[00:05:15] Speaker B: There sure is.
[00:05:17] Speaker C: But when you take their first and second choices combined, it's about 60%.
So what that says to me is or suggests a lot of people are choosing cremation because their first choice, method of disposition is too expensive, or it's not available in their area, or maybe they just don't know what their options are. Right. So in other words, there's a chunk of people who really like cremation, and then there's a chunk of people who are just going with cremation because they don't feel like they have a better, better option. Choice.
[00:05:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay, so how do we talk about that other 30%?
[00:05:57] Speaker C: Well, let me. Let me also tell you one other. So that was the cremation number, and then casket burial was the first choice for 36% of people. It was the first or second choice for 51% of people. So when you take, I think those two numbers together. Right.
A lot of people are just saying, I want to stick with one of the two major options. I'm happy with the status quo. Right. A significant number of people are saying, I'm happy with the status quo. There's still a bunch of people who are interested in these new things.
But then I think it's also interesting to look at that 36% that say casket burial is their first choice. That's about what the casket burial rate is. Right.
So it sounds like the people who want casket burial are getting casket burial.
[00:06:44] Speaker B: Yep, that makes sense.
[00:06:46] Speaker C: So then the question is, are there like, downward pressures or incentives that could be applied to make any of these things sort of more attractive or interesting or available to people?
[00:06:59] Speaker B: Okay, so one of the most important insights from your work is that the consumers think about this position and memorialization separately.
So why is that distinction so critical?
[00:07:11] Speaker C: I think one of the mistakes that the death care industry in general made when cremation started becoming more popular, and I don't. I'm. This is not something I'm accusing the industry of. I think the industry recognizes that this is true, is people made assumptions about why folks were choosing cremation. And it was a widespread assumption that people were choosing cremation because of the cost. And that was the sole or most important reason. And certainly cost plays a role. Right. There are methods of disposition that are more expensive than others.
However, there's a lot of research that shows that people choose cremation for many other reasons that don't have anything to do with cost. And one of the most significant of those is flexibility.
Maybe they're not from the place where their family is from. They don't feel an attachment to a particular cemetery to be buried with their family members. Right. They don't have that kind of connection to a place. Or perhaps, you know, family and friends are spread out and they want to delay when they're having the memorial service, etc. Cremation gives them that flexibility that burial doesn't. Doesn't lend itself as readily to.
However, there is nothing. There's nothing internally inconsistent or, I'm sorry, inherently inconsistent between cost and memorialization or flexibility and memorialization. Right. There's no hint in either of those two reasons that people don't want ritual, that they don't want remembrance. Right. They maybe just want it in a different way than we're used to.
[00:08:52] Speaker B: Okay, that makes sense to me as a memorial provider. I think that oftentimes we assume that folks who choose cremation aren't necessarily interested in memorialization, But I think we're finding more and more that is absolutely not the case. Right.
[00:09:14] Speaker C: Yes. And. And I mean, I would just say that it's been my observation that, like, especially folks who are interested in natural organic reduction composting. Right. The folks who are choosing that method of disposition in the few places that offer it right now seem to be searching for and embracing different kinds of rituals. That is memorialization. It's just not memorialization in the same way that we've been thinking about it. And that doesn't even necessarily mean they don't want to be tied to a place. Right. Like you could still have composting and have a memorial where the compost is spread. Right.
So I think one of the mistakes that we've made is assuming that people don't that assume that people are trying to divorce memorialization from any of these methods of disposition. And in fact, you can have memorialization with any of them.
[00:10:13] Speaker B: Right.
[00:10:14] Speaker C: And it's really all about flexibility and options and not making assumptions about what it is that the consumer wants and instead laying out for the consumer what their. Their different possibilities are.
[00:10:26] Speaker B: That makes sense.
So really, cremation in and of itself shouldn't concern monument builders quite as much as the thoughtful disposition of the created remains. Right?
[00:10:39] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, because you've got what are you doing with the body, and then you've got what is the final place of disposition. Right. And does that final place of disposition lend itself to memorialization? If somebody wants to scatter, then maybe there's not as much of an opportunity, or maybe there's just a different opportunity. Right?
[00:11:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I think. I think different opportunity is what we're trying to promote in our own way. I think that every life deserts deserves to be remembered. Right. And I think that most folks who have experienced a loss do find at some point they're missing some sort of connection to that life.
And without a memorial of some sort, that connection is tenuous at best.
[00:11:32] Speaker C: Right.
[00:11:33] Speaker B: Okay. So families often lack full information about memorial options. In that case, what role should monument builders play in education, especially before a death occurs?
[00:11:45] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I think that the key is that everyone in the death care industry should be focusing not necessarily on pre need in terms of it doesn't make financial sense for everybody to prepay for whatever their arrangements are going to be. But consumers in the United States are very death ignorant. Right. They don't know what their options are.
And I'm sure you've experienced many times people in an at need situation making stressed decisions.
[00:12:16] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:12:17] Speaker C: That they haven't had a chance to think through fully.
So I'm a big advocate of everybody trying to help consumers understand more in advance what their options are and having a chance to think about it and discuss it with their family about what makes the most sense to them. Because I think that people under those circumstances make very different decisions than people in a stressed out need situation.
[00:12:41] Speaker B: 100%. Yeah, we definitely find that. And I think that, you know, not only the prearrangement or pre need or at least conversation in advance helps change the tone of the conversation. Right. It's not, it's not focused on loss, it's not focused on grief. It's not focused on pain and suffering. It's focusing on the positive side of the life being lived or having been lived and how to remember and commemorate it. So it's much more cerebral and less emotional. For sure.
[00:13:16] Speaker C: Right, right, exactly.
[00:13:19] Speaker B: All right, so if you could offer one piece of advice to monument builders navigating cremation growth, what would that be?
[00:13:26] Speaker C: So I think, you know, as, as we've talked about, and it sounds like you're already thinking about this and doing this is just about creativity right now. I mean, I personally love cemeteries, I absolutely love cemeteries. But cemeteries may not be the only place that we can have memorials to folks. Right. And especially with rising interest in greener methods of disposition, maybe the best memorial is, you know, in a park.
Right. Or in a church. I mean, churches have gotten very innovative, especially with, with columbarium and niches and scattering gardens and things like that. Right. So I think thinking about, in partnership with cemeteries, what are ways to be more creative within the cemetery grounds, but then also exploring opportunities outside of the cemetery. Because the bottom line is with consumers, I think you have to meet them where they are and try to find something that resonates with them and is meaningful to them. Because I think one of the lessons of my research is if we just keep offering people the same old options, they're going to go outside of those options and try and find something else that is meaningful to them.
[00:14:42] Speaker B: Sure. And those, those choices may not be as effective or positive a choice as might have been with a little bit of education.
[00:14:52] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:14:52] Speaker B: For sure.
You know, Personally, I still think that while everybody certainly has their choice and scattering, as you said, is becoming more popular and things like that, personally, I still think that the best place for a memorial is in the cemetery only from the standpoint that it's going to get the most care long term.
It's going to remain a place of reverence and reflection. When you go into scattering or, or those kind of options and you place a memorial in those type of locations, which, again, I'm a strong proponent of the memorial itself, that connection point between us and those who have gone before us, because I really do believe in its importance.
You know, we see we're such a society of change. Right.
And so when you might memorialize in those areas that are not protected in the same way as a cemetery, who's to say in 20 years or 50 years or 100 years that that memorial is still going to be where it was placed? So, you know, to me, that's a concern. To everybody else, maybe not so much, but it's certainly something to consider. Right.
[00:16:18] Speaker C: And to your point about scattering, I, you know, wonder if with scattering, it is as popular as it is because that's what real people really want to do or because they can't think of any better option. Right. And this is. That's where education can really step in. And the reason I say that is not that there's anything necessarily wrong with scattering, but how many people have an urn in their home because they haven't decided what they want to do yet? Right. And it's part of, I think part of the hesitancy, at least for some people, is, well, I guess we're just going to scatter, but then once we scatter, we're done. Right?
[00:17:01] Speaker B: Right.
[00:17:01] Speaker C: That's. That's the end. And if you're not scattering or interring or. Right. In a cemetery, then does that place where you've put them, that random place where you've put them, have any meaning and resonance to you? And I think that's part of what's going on with so many people holding on to cremated remains in their closets, et cetera, because the final solution or the final disposition that they have in mind doesn't really feel good to them.
[00:17:32] Speaker B: Right.
So getting back to the conversation, about 60% cremation rate, 30% prefer cremation.
Those 30% that don't prefer it but end up cremating anyway, is there a way to help those people navigate that in a different way toward a different outcome?
[00:18:02] Speaker C: So I think the question is, what's Motivating them. Right. What is it that they don't like? I will say that when I ask. So we ask people to rank order. And I talked about folks who said this is my top two choices. Right. For casket burial, 30% of the respondents put it as their fifth or sixth choice.
They don't want casket burial at all. They prefer all kinds of other things.
So I think it's important to think about why that is right. There are reasons why people would prefer it and there are reasons why people say, no way, I'll do almost anything other than that. And I think, and again, I didn't ask people this, but given some of the data on green burial, the green burial numbers were very high. 33% put it as their first or second choice.
So I think we need to step back from burial for a second. Right. And placement in a cemetery and think about is there something about the casket, the vault, all of that, that people don't like, whether it's because of cost or it's because they perceive it to be environmentally consumptive, that they'd like to go a greener route but still be in a cemetery.
Right. And that that can include memorialization too. So maybe we need to think, rethink burial in terms of the options that are available to folks. Is it really a binary or could it be a continuum to sort of bring people back to burial?
[00:19:40] Speaker B: Sure.
So I'm sure you found out a lot of interesting things in your research and your, your study. Could you tell me one thing that you expected to find that was reinforced and maybe something that you didn't expect to find that was surprising?
[00:19:59] Speaker C: Well, I think the most surprising thing are some of the generational revelations. So Gen z, which is 28 year olds down to, I'm not sure, I think 14 year olds, but we really only studied, you know, 18 year olds to 28 year olds. Gen Z, 52% said casket burial was their first choice.
That was much, much higher than any of the other generations, the baby boomers. In contrast, 27% said casket burial was their first choice. So I think that's a real question going forward. We're planning to repeat this survey on an annual basis. And so we can track not the specific people who answered it, but at least the generational cohort to see if as that cohort ages, some of their preferences change or they just get reinforced.
[00:20:49] Speaker B: Right.
[00:20:50] Speaker C: Like what's going on with Gen Z. Right. Does this represent a fundamental shift back towards casket burial or is this a. They feel a stronger sense of home to Their childhood home. They haven't yet experienced a lot of moves in their life. Is this something that sort of their preferences change as they age?
[00:21:10] Speaker B: I think that will be an interesting study to see this. Is this a generational thing or is it more an age specific thing? So, as you know, this is how I feel today, but as I get closer to having to really make those decisions, am I still going to feel the same way?
[00:21:28] Speaker C: Yeah.
And then I'd say the thing. So that was unexpected. The thing that I did sort of expect and was reinforced was respondents were incredibly open to every method of doing disposition. So I think almost 50% said they would consider human composting and alkaline hydrolysis, which are, you know, human composting's only been around for five years and 40 some percent said that they would consider it. Six percent said it was their first choice.
So those are pretty remarkable numbers. What I think that all says is people want choices, right? People just want to have choices and then decide what is right for them and their family at the appropriate time. But they don't want the law restricting what it is that they can choose from.
[00:22:16] Speaker B: No, I, I think that that makes sense. You know, as Americans, choice is really one of the most important things to us and being able to choose for ourselves, for sure. And again, I think that regardless of the method and means, you know, those for some can be, they could be very important, they could be not so important. But again, having some connection to that life lived I think is often more important than many folks realize. And studies have borne this out. Right.
So very interesting. So again you mentioned. So you do intend to repeat the preference research.
Do you have any other research projects underway?
[00:23:04] Speaker C: No, no other research projects underway.
I'm working on trying to make it easier for people to leave their instructions about what they want their funeral and disposition option, you know, what they want their funeral home disposition preferences to be. The law is kind of a mess with that. So I'm, I'm trying to work on some documentation that can make it easier for people to leave their preferences because, you know, as we've sort of touched on before, I think, I think that we don't talk about these things enough and we need to normalize these conversations and only by normalizing these conversations and getting options out there are we going to make better educated consumers who can make more thoughtful decisions. So a lot of my work is focused on trying again to normalize those conversations and get a start at it.
[00:23:53] Speaker B: So speaking of that point is growing the education in terms of at the point of law school introducing this type of curriculum across a broader spectrum of institutions, Is that part of your mission? And how do you think that will be going over the next several years?
[00:24:15] Speaker C: Well, I would love to do that. I mean, I have students at other law schools send me emails and ask if they can take my class, which is easier in an age of zoom, but also a little difficult to have.
[00:24:27] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:24:29] Speaker C: But I am encouraged by that, that people are interested in it. I mean, I. I've been teaching my class every year for about 13 years, and I get between 15 and 40 people a semester.
[00:24:41] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:24:42] Speaker C: You know, there's definitely folks that are interested in learning more about this. So I just, I think podcasts like this and conversations like this, they just push, push the information, the conversation out into the public sphere, and that's the best thing that we can do.
[00:24:58] Speaker B: Education is power. Knowledge is power. Right?
[00:25:00] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:25:01] Speaker B: All right, well, I'd like to start to wrap up today's podcast by thanking our today's guest, Dr. Tanya Marsh. So thanks for sharing with me and our audience. Our conversation certainly has been enlightening. The March issue of MB News is the Cremation issue, which features an article about Dr. Marsh's research.
I encourage you to read this and every issue of MB News. I also encourage you to listen to Dr. Marsh's podcast titled Death ETSEC or Death and what Follows, which can be found at D E A T H E T S E q dot com.
So if you have a topic you'd like to have covered in a future podcast of ours, please leave a comment in our comment section. Thank you again for listening today to today's installment of Monument Matters. MB&A invites you to stay connected Through Facebook and LinkedIn or visit us at www.monimalbuilders.org for upcoming events and webinars. For MB and A and Monument Matters, I'm Michael Johns. Thanks for taking time out of your day and away from your reels to listen in. If you found today's content worthwhile, please share the link with a friend for comments and feedback. We'd love to hear from you, so please drop A note to infoonumentbuilders.org Again, Dr. Marsh, thanks for taking time out of your day to join me and our audience folks at home, take care. Have a great day.
